Crash course in drives and lines - Page 2

Might I just add here, the fear drive is not easy to assess, it may only become apparent when it is pushed in training, and if miss assessed can become a problem. I had a young male who during training was pushed into defensive drive too early in his career then decided that the only way to deal with things which scared him was to attack them - thankfully only verbally. He was trained by myself and two of the very best trainers around, and we all made the same mistake, he appeared a very confident dog but was in fact less confident when not attached to me, as he showed no sign of this shortfall until after the training session we had nothing to assess only confidence. Thankfully I managed to spot and control his problem. He is now happy in a pet home where his confidence is bolstered and there are no threats. C.

Thanks for all your thoughtful responses! Especially Get A Real Dog for taking the time to lay it all out. There's a lot of information for me to chew on. But truth be told, I have already gone about this bassackwards, but want to be able to know what I'm doing when I get the next pup. I'm thinking two GSD's are better than one. I seem to have dealt with fear drive/biting as described by AZSHEP6 and Radical in a prior rescue GSD/Pit mix, but didn't know it. (Now talk about an UGLY dog, he looked like a red/black brindle GSD, about 75lbs, kinda like a Dutch Shepherd, which I never knew existed until a few weeks ago!) He was a real handful at first! Once he charged across the street in front of a cop car and held two pedestrians at bay, as a young pup. Got us written up in the police blotter and permanent black mark on his record. Actually bit a jogger another time. Dr. said, Ohh, he sure gave her a "good pinch"! Eventually, many years later, he did manage to become a good pet. And just looking at him was enough to keep the riff-raff away. I think it would be great to get involved with Agility, not sure what one can do with a dog with a good nose but questionable papers. He's going to puppy Obediance Training now, but they offer something called Rally. What's that all about I wonder? Deb

Drives can be broken down fairly simply. Most drives are interactive in one way or another. There are only a few drives that are important to our interaction with the canine. The two most important probably being prey and defense. Please read the attached article. Also, Colonel Most, who is referred to in this article is also must reading in order to understand drives and training. http://www.finographics.com/schutzhund/protection/protectiondrives.htm

I don't know if you can find them, but Armin Winkler used to write quite a few articles on drives. They were very descriptive. One article he wrote, that pertains to your question, is an article about defining your dog. The theme was that most people have different definitions for certain terms. For example, is your dog a HARD dog or does he have a high tolerance to pain? Is your dog DEFENSIVE, or does he have a low tolerance to pain and stimulation? A lot of times we use the wrong terms to define our own dogs. Another good read is DER SCHUTZHUND. It will help out anyone beginning with a shepherd. Even if you don't intend on schutzhund.

Get a Real Dog -- seems you are one of the very few that realy understand . just for the record for you folks that will get up in arms -- i also refer tyou to and article last year in Scutzhund USA, that the terminology and use of the word "drive" is so anitqjuaited and outdated .. that thwn I hear it used I just realize how backwards sch folks are or how tunneled vision they are . No wonder Sch is so aptrtern trained and so choreographed that the GSD does not even have to think during performance ! dogs have feelings , thoughts , innate intstincts emotions that all direct it to exhibit the behavior that fulfills it's need . yes .. sometimes to chase to eat , to dfend its right to reproduce , to claim its shelter , and to self preservation just to name a few. ands ssometimes behavior is multidimensional .i get a kick out of the comment " does the dog have the drive" . so what .. i want to know first of all the indivudual pup/dog ..ok it will chase a ball.. you call that in your archaic terms prey drive .. i laugh at that ...it is more important to me as to HOW , When , Where , and What the dog will do inorder to be able to chase the ball [ how important is it to him to exhibit the behavior / what's the moptivation?] Why the dog will chase the ball/item , and moreover .. equally important to me ..when it has the prey item .. what will it do with it . ? does it posses it ? , will he run off with it , will it look at you and say try to take it and play keep away ?will it bring it back /share it with me. if out of site will it search for it and will it scewnt for it and if it smells it but can't see it will it stgruggle to get it / indicate for it ? .. so you see wjhen i hear the word drive it tells me nothing about the dog. why the spiel ... because if i want a dog fro personal protection i want a pup that shows propensity to work independent from me .. doesn't need daddy pant legs. if i want narcotics dog i look for very high seeking motivations. for search and rescue a pup that is highly social that loves it's toys yet will maintain an affinity to interact with the owner. again when you talk about drives in a dog .. you really miss the boat , dogs are not packages that are sold.

Alphapup, no matter what you call it or how you package it, the drives are what make a dog respond. If you have a more modern term for the "archaic terms prey drive" please share it with the rest of us. Defintions are what we use in order to discuss what makes a dog tick. If you have a better set let us know.

i enjoyed reading this thread alot.. and i dont want to steer too far from the question of drives and suitablity of matching puppy with correct home.. but how would you equate stability of nerves along the lines of working vs. show.. and i know its a bit of a hot topic....but i do find a lot of you so informantive.. still want your opinions.. let me sorta clarify if i can.. i hear a lot equate good working with eagerness to bite.. and show is all about looks .. if one is most interested in a stable gsd... a part of family.. again thanks for the response..

Thank you very much for the link spook101... Struck my greymatter most " So in order to increase FIGHTING DRIVE, we have to promote prey drive, build up defense drive, and strengthen aggression by teaching the dog that he can defeat and dominate the helper. This should make it very clear that as much as fighting drive is a very DESIREABLE QUALITY , one cannot expect to see it fully developed in a one year old dog..." I was wrong with my 5-month pup... at least I'm aware I'm going on the right track with you terriffic guys on the message board... I'm only confused wether a well developed fight drive will defeat the purpose of SchH which is to have a PROTECTION dog... either ways a good fight drive as long its controlled... is better and what were looking for in a dog

According to the author of DER Schutzhund and may I share it with the message board.. "Do your dogs a favor and help them develop all the components that make up good fighting drive, rather than waiting until it magically appears out of thin air because the dog should have "it" naturally..." This will somewhat explain that a dog is a dog, It can be trained with the correct techniques... It so happens that Working lines has a decades headstart going to the correct direction the founder visioned it to be... The Showline people will have to work diligently with their dogs to incorporate this to their lines or else their best alternative will be having a beautiful dog as a GUIDE for the BLIND or SAR work where protection work is only an option... For the working line people, a hard biting dogs is not the only working dog, he needs to be hard at the same time intelligent to know when to bark and when to fight and when to bite.

According to the author of DER Schutzhund and may I share it with the message board.. "Do your dogs a favor and help them develop all the components that make up good fighting drive, rather than waiting until it magically appears out of thin air because the dog should have "it" naturally..." This will somewhat explain that a dog is a dog, It can be trained with the correct techniques... It so happens that Working lines has a decades headstart going to the correct direction the founder visioned it to be... The Showline people will have to work diligently with their dogs to incorporate this to their lines or else their best alternative will be having a beautiful dog as a GUIDE for the BLIND or SAR work where protection work is only an option... For the working line people, a hard biting dogs is not the only working dog, he needs to be hard at the same time intelligent to know when to bark and when to fight and when to bite.