Training the heel - Page 2

BW I cited the Seiger vids because they are one place where you can see and compare what is happening OUTSIDE the formal Ob. exercises and IN ADDITION to the actual bites & holds - most training videos on YouTube, Vimeo etc do not include that; and most do not allow comparison of a whole series of dogs rather than one or perhaps two per video. (Apologies for example to Kaffirdog as I know she shows a LOT more of what is going on in her training vids.)

The way the dogs are handled going into the first blind is ALL about having them hyped up. It is NOT about the handler controlling them well ! You only have to look at the way the handlers are usually hanging onto their collars like grim death to see that. But I am not arguing with you because you always believe you are 100% right and no other interpretation can be put on things.

That is the point where Bob's "Its not how much attention you ask for, its how much compulsion you use to keep them there when they look away." comes into play.

OP; get involved with the best trainer in your area. Go see a few. Try to not judge until you work your dog to some level of control. A handler can pay too much attention to videos!

If you had any idea why those dogs need to be hyped up you wouldn't be worried about why they're not heeling. There's a reason for everything that's done and it's way over your head why those dogs aren't asked to heel more properly. When the dog is walking the handler can't have their hands on their collars...so I'm not sure what you're referring to...probably some back yard test you saw at some point. Maybe if you actually trained a few dogs for schutzhund, or even the bite work portion of a sieger show you'd have more of an understanding of what goes on there and why the dogs in the videos posted on this site are handled the way they are.

And to your point about compulsion...has to do with the same thing as above. You need to use compulsion for the same reason that those dogs aren't under complete control. I'll let you try to figure out what that is...

When teaching "Heeling" you don't ask for perfect "Focus" to begin with...What you ask for is position and when they look at you...you reward them...Like I said it matters in how you're gonna train to know how you're gonna reward...But it depends on the dog itself...
You ask for a little more each time you work with your dog...If and when your dog looks at you...you reward them...if and when they look away you can give a little "Pop" / Correction with the leash...
Just remember that you don't start off asking for the world...You keep chipping away to get what you want or is your goal...You have to be very patient and understand that neither you or your dog learns everything overnight...
The best way to learn...for both you and your dog...is to find someone to help you...Just know the better the trainer...the better you'll learn the right way to begin with and it'll make it much easier for both of you...
Remember: You want to make this Fun and a Happy Occasion...Training should always be a fun time...Your goal should be to have Fun and Teach your dog at the same time...

~Bob~

That is the point where Bob's "Its not how much attention you ask for, its how much compulsion you use to keep them there when they look away." comes into play.

Punishment does not always equal compulsion, if you believe it does, that says a whole lot about your training methods. I am not knocking them, just not what most trainers do in the last 10 years. Most trainers only use compulsion when a dog know fully disobeys and its not a thundering of a correction, but enough of one that the behavior does not keep occurring. On top of that, the situation in which the dog willfully and knowingly disobeyed is generally set up again but this time with a little less of the stimuli (whether it be adding distance, lessening the criteria a bit, ect..) and making it easier for the dog to be successful and then be rewarded for the appropriate behavior.

For me and others (and obviously BWagon based on the posting) focused healing is more about the one/two way communication. I have built in queues for my dog during heeling that he knows a turn and which direction the turn is going to happen. He knows when i am going to stop or move out. My dog knows by my body and facial queues what I am going to ask of him next, especially since i do not pattern train.

A few great resources around this are: The Other End of the Leash by Patricia B Connell; Contingencies of Reinforcement by BF Skinner; and He’s just not that into you by Meagan Karnes

Thanks for the input everyone. I got my question answered and then some!

Cut, I don't think 'compulsion' always equals 'punishment', either. You can compel with understanding, with force of will; I didn't read Q Man as talking only about punishing the dog for anything. Indeed, I would suggest that punishing for not focussing on you would be counter-productive !

The OP expressed some concern with not being comfortable with modern heel-work style. I expressed a personal opinion, in that I also dislike it. I didn't actually expect the subsequent lecture from Bav.

COGSD, listen to Bav, he is spot on...

Hundmutter, you need to differ between several heeling styles:

in "former times" there was "heeling only" ( most often the dogs looked kind of suppressed, walking stoicly on the left side of the handler ) - till the later eighties - at that time obedience was no fun for dogs...

then judges wanted to see more "happy" dogs - the "wrapping" came up - "perfected" in the nineties - until judges realized it´s senseless, and the dogs still weren´t happy....

now, for a couple of years handlers teach the "neck crank heel style" ( thank you, Dragonfry ), BUT, like Bav said, you will pass with a "normal" heeling dog, on a local trial you most certainly won´t even loose any points. There is no need to teach the dog this kind of heeling.

Bitework ( C ) is different; and bitework on a breed survey / Siegershow is even more different ( again - Bav is spot on ).

It´s about different drives and different focus, although the dogs are still "heeling".

COGSD, just join a club, and have fun - everything else will come sooner or later...

Hund, when i read/hear the term 'compulsion' the definition "the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something" is what i think of. Is this not what was meant? Also, i am curious, why is it that you point to the dogs in the Sieger show? Not disagreeing with you, personally i think it sucks that we (as those in the GSD world) have to note that OB performance at a Sieger show is less important than at an IPO trial. I have talked to different SV judges about why the different standards and have been amazed at their answers :(

Even though i have ranted on about this, I can honestly say that FOCUSED HEALING in ANYTHING other than competition OB, is dumb, is unnatural and pretty much serves no purpose other than a 'circus trick', BUT when two way communication between handler and dog is paramount then it needs to occur without impeding the natural walking of the handler. The handler should not be walking around his dogs path or using his left leg to push the dog back into position with every step. And BWagon is correct, in IPO you do loose points, the amount of those points generally depends on the Judge, Org and level (Club, regional, national...) of the trial. My dog is welcomed to stick to my left leg like Velcro if he wants, however, the behavior would never get marked and he would never get a reward. Just busy walking around being frustrated :)

During secondary OB in protection I do not ask my dog to focus on me. We are a team, his job is to keep his drive capped, his focus on the helper and in tune with me and where i am. Because of this theory, my dog often looks at me for a quick check in and then focus right back on the helper. When he is guarding, his focus needs to be on the helper not me, when i walk up to do a pick up, his focus stays on the helper and he mentally tunes into me. the downside of this for me is that my mutt is generally right on the edge of self control vs giving into his hedonistic ways. Most times he keeps himself in check and then sometimes he goes all idiot.

But for the OP and others, i would suggest not teaching the 'neck crank' or 'nose to the sky' healing if they are only doing it for a picture and not looking for two way communication or striving for a V OB rating and playing a points game.

 

 

The problem with “teaching the heel” is that it greatly depends on your dog‘s natural drive and ability. You can’t make every dog heel like the dogs you see at the higher levels. The handlers at the higher levels have the dogs they do because they have the natural ability to heel that way and they shape the style of heeling they want. When we speak of motivation/compulsion, some dogs will never have the natural motivation (drive) to heel with their heads up for the extent of the obedience routine. That’s where compulsion will usually need to be used in order to make the dog keep their head up and at least give the allusion of happy/drivey heeling. It also forces that focus that is needed in order to have quicker reflexes in the exercises which call for it and not lose points in other places throughout the routine. Most dogs that do IPO do not have enough drive to hold that picture throughout the B phase and so they don’t. Most trainers don’t know how to train that type of picture either and so their dogs don’t have it. There are definitely handlers/trainers that can keep their dog in “obedience” throughout C phase and the dog can perform exercises in obedience rather than a natural “defense/fight/protection” drive…most can’t do that and the dogs are usually teetering on the edge of control. That’s why the heeling picture in protection is generally different than in obedience. It’s also different because in general the “reward” or bite in protection is coming from the helper, where in obedience it’s usually coming from the handler (ball/tug/food) so the reward placement is different causing a different picture.

For those wondering…sieger show heeling is different than other heeling because in general, the dogs do not have the drive to be forced to heel and then react to the attack. The compulsion necessary to keep those dogs in a proper heel would probably shut most of them down to the point where they would be in great conflict between staying with the handler, or getting the helper. Unfortunately, their natural drive for protection and nerve has been bred down to the point where there is a very fine balance between obedience and protection for them. When there is already a lack of drive to engage a helper, the last thing a handler needs to do is correct a dog to get it stressed about what it’s doing rather than focusing on the helper and the job at hand.

The reason I said don’t worry about it and just teach the position and whatever head position you like is that this being your first dog (I’m making that assumption based on the post) there are a lot of other places you’re more likely to lose points than in the heeling. Lower levels don’t care much about it as long as the dog is there and seems to want to be there, and the most you’ll get in a critique is that “at a higher level we want to see a little different picture.” Go to IPO clubs/trials and see how most dogs are heeling…I promise you it’s nothing like what you see on the videos of the competitive trials.