Puppy handler aggression? - Page 2

Nurse Bishop, your puppy's 'nice pet' mother gives her 50% of her genetic makeup, and more than 50% of her learned character because the bitch rears the puppies, the sire doesn't. You need to be looking at her ancestral background also,if you want to assess the extent to which grandparents and beyond can have influenced the puppy's workability, breedworthiness etc. (Mind you, his handler reckoned Zamp was a very nice famiy pet, too, in addition to being crowned a multiple Sieger !)

At this distance I would not wish to give any specific advice on training or on your girl's behaviour, but would support two of the broad points being made: one, that all training goes better with LOTS of reward, and so does achieving a better 'bond' with the dog. Does not have to be food. I too am not a particular fan of Leerburg or of Ellis, but studying a variety of different methods can be valuable to you for the future, and may certainly give you creative ideas on toys and equipment, and the sometimes subtle ways those can be used to advantage. Two, that being too strictly compulsive with a pup in the early stages of training isn't generally advisable.

Mostly though I want to issue one warning, since this is your first GSD: irrespective of your current results and however the 'snarly face' stuff goes from here, please take note that at 4.5 months a pup is still a baby. [GSDs are a slow maturing breed]. You seemed very pleased with progress to date, and the speed of results. Great. Very often, little ones do show VERY fast responses. But you should please prepare yourself for what happens in many cases when you get a few months further along the line. Partly because they are so bright and display so much working aptitude, when puberty hits (and even if you get her spayed before many more months, you'll still get some hormonal change) she may cease to be quite so willing and may start snarly faces etc again, as she 'grows up' and tests her boundaries with you. If that happens it needs to be worked through by going back over training things you thought she 'knew'. These are the sort of things being in touch with a decent Trainer can educate you in. Too many first time owners (or previous owners of less feisty breeds) give up at that point and the dog ends up in a shelter. Please don't let that be you !

I hate to break this to you Nurse Bishop, your pedigree is half American showlines, half German showlines. It is a requirement that German show dogs have working titles before they are bred. Welcome to the breed and the forum. Your results have pleased you so far but I will say your dog has a negative association with the way the down was trained. Placing a muzzle for that reason on the puppy creates further conflict and does not address the problem. I would reboot the down and give it a positive association. The best way to teach a down is by luring with food under your leg until the dog is in a down, marking the behaviour and paying the dog. You may have to not give what ever signal for the down that causes conflict. Once the puppy knows what the down is, you can change the reward. You shouldn't give a dog a correction while it is in the position you desire. If a dog breaks a stay, it is a mistake to take a dog back to the spot it should have been and give a correction there. If you are going to use corrections, you would give a marker and correct the dog out of position. It is common for people to give a dog a correction in heel position while giving the heel command, it is far better to mark the behaviour with a no, step out of position, and deliver a correction. All positions that we desire in a dog should be a place of safety, and it shows in the results. Don Sullivans methods show the conflicts in training with his results, dogs that he trains are slow to perform the tasks they are given and they often show an unhappy picture. You have to decide whether you want to force a puppy to do everything or do you want to build a relationship of trust.

Training in obedience should take advantage of a play/prey drive, food drive, and a pack drive. Don Sullivan throws out one of those drives and minimalizes another. The German Shepherd dog breed is not the same as other breeds and the training should not be a one size fits all. The Don Sullivan method does not take in consideration the advantages in the breed and treats your puppy the same as dogs that are not motivated. The German showlines are very good at pleasing their master as long as there is s good relationship. They are highly intelligent and will shut down if you get too abusive.

Hundmutter- I like to watch the Justice Channel TV programs Alaska State Troopers and Border Wars. The best part is many dogs are shown working. I notice when a dog finds drugs or a perpetrator it is INSTANTLY thrown its favorite chew toy and given lavish praise. The dogs show great joy to be rewarded. Yes you are right I should give her a break and not be such a drill sergeant. She still is a baby dog, afterall. I am aware of pubescent rebellion and will expect it. The pup seems very bonded to me. She follows me around and she leaves her soft bed to lie at my feet, she gives those long soulful looks with her beautiful eyes. She does want to please me. What a blessing it is to have a good dog.

Markobytes- I think it is great that German and Eastern European GSDs have to be titled in order to breed. And here in this country the AKC registers anything. My veterinarian was pleased to see my puppy's behavior. She said most GSD she sees are scatterbrained nervous idiots.

Yes you are right, it is only the down command that causes the snarly face. With Don Sullivan, this CD was given to me by the way, his method was tried on my sensitive Greyhound and she just folded and was demoralized. I stopped using it. Sighthounds do not have to be trained anyway. They just lie on a pillow in the house then disappear with you and your horse at 40 mph. Don Sullivan says dogs are all about dominance. People tend to make excuses for dogs or humanize them when its really all about pack order. So I thought this snarly face was her challenging my dominance because the down is such a submissive position. I am so glad I brought this problem here before I messed up a good dog. I will reteach the down the way you suggest and will change the signal. I did try food rewards with her once. I used pieces of cheese. She ate a couple of pieces and then would not even eat it after that. Maybe I should try meat.

" If a dog breaks a stay, it is a mistake to take a dog back to the spot it should have been and give a correction there." Don Sullivan does return the dog to the place it broke the stay but does not correct them once there. He gives a few snaps on the way there. I am guilty of giving the heel command and correction while they are heeling. " it is far better to mark the behaviour with a no, step out of position, and deliver a correction" Please explain this. I really appreciate the help and advice. Thanks to all.

in dog training there should not be grey areas. It seems to be common for people to correct a problem in heeling, with the dog looking away, lagging, or forging ahead, by the person correcting the dog by giving the heel command and popping the dog back into position. The problem with this is the dog is too close to being in position, the dog is made to feel uncomfortable to be in the position it should be in. The dog is further made to associate the correct command with punishment. It would be better to mark the exact time that the dog is out of position with a no, for you to step out of position fully and deliver a correction. You only correct a dog for direct disobedience or not doing an exercise once it is clear the dog understands what it is being told. You do not correct a dog that does not understand, does something different from what you ask or if the dog is tired or sick. It is also unfair to let a dog get away with something 27 times and then finally get mad at the dog the 28th time. Your puppy is still a little young to be introducing corrections in my opinion. You should be working on imprinting her speed and precision through lures and rewards, try not to push her patience to the point where she makes a mistake, releasie and reward her from the exercise before she breaks.

Is it only me wondering about all these stereotypes?
The OP does satisfy almost all no-gos we ever discussed on this board...

The OP claims he/she

got a 6 weeks old puppy out of
untitled/unknown parents
describes showlines a workinglines
already owned 9 ( ! ) dogs ( even sighthounds need some manners )
runs a young puppy a mile ( or swims her twice a day ) PRIOR to "training"
uses a prong collar on a 4 months old puppy
teaches a 4 month old puppy to jump ( hoops, platforms )
teaches a puppy the "down command" for "a long period of time", handler out of sight !!!
the "training sessions" last 15 - 20 minutes
believes in praise, no treats
USES A ( CLOTH ) MUZZLE for a 4 months old puppy and then "TRAINS HER FOR A WHILE"

but knows about Zamp Thermodos...

I may be wrong, but in case this OP really is serious, he/she made almost any fault people are able to make...

To the OP: In case you are no troll ( although in that case I feel sorry for your pup ) you are the owner of a PUPPY, "training sessions" during this age should be fun, the attention span of such a young dog is less than 5 minutes, no big breed should jump during growth, pinch collar and muzzle are a no-go for a pup of this age.
In case you are "real", a down command with the handler out of sight during this age is like telling a toddler it has to stay at one spot for minutes, while the mom is leaving...

Try to find a club, even if it´s a long way. It´s about foundation work, and that´s essential.

Kind regards

Thank you for your 'insights'. I am a woman. The puppy does what she does and is what she is. Her jumps through hoops are less than one foot. She is lifted down from pickup trucks when unloaded. The European showlines dogs are also titled schutzhunds, as they must be, and this shows they have a mind and are trainable. She does down stay for 5 minutes with the handler out of sight with occasional glimpses of the handler as they do their work around the farm, so her attention span must be more than 5 minutes. On the 19th she will be 5 months old. The one thing she does is makes a snarly face about 1/3 of the time when she is asked for he down. Today I changed that regimen as advised. The prong collar is not used all the time, neither is the muzzle. These are just some tools in the toolbox. This is the first dog I have ever tried to train and thats why I am here, to learn.

You might not have liked the way Susie put it, but every words she has written is worth serious consideration.

Your training process is obviously working to your satisfaction, except the snarling part. And, I think you have got a great intelligent pup, who is learning fast to obey the repetitions you are putting her through.

But, it's highly unlikely that she will eventually come out of this unharmed.

Nurse Bishop

Sounds like your puppy is defending herself because you are hurting her, there are ways to train without pain, some others have suggested videos. Personally, I'd retrain the down without a prong or force until the defence reflex has receded and take things more slowly so she has less opportunity to make mistakes and follows commands because she wants to rather than being afraid of the consequences.

Margaret N-J

I was taught to make training fun and to take my ego out of it.  If a dog is not doing something I wanted, then I need to ask myself what I did wrong.  The old saying "slap the handler" because it is rarely the dog's fault.  If training is done with pain, force, and fear, you will have a problem dog forever (you used collectively, not as in you personally Nurse Bishop do it).  My dogs listen because we are a team and they get rewarded.  I remember one time I got upset with one of my dogs and my trainer told me to stop making it about me, I need to take my ego out of it.  In other words, I had to stop looking at disobedience or not listening as a personal affront done to me on purpose by my dog, and ego insult, a personal f-you by my dog.  Once I stopped doing that and living in the moment with my dogs during training, it was wonderful and progress was made at an amazing pace.