American shepherds vs Germans........ - Page 2

blitzen - i dont disagree; 'c' course is the closest AKC style gets, which is still not equiv of HGH. part of original question was about workability, so my point was that there is at least herding ability in (some?) Am showlines. BTW, no Am showlines at my place. i much prefer the German type(s).

Actually Blitzen it would depend on the level attained and the program (course). I have worked german shepherds for ALL lines. For consistency in good 'working' traits you will find it in the german working lines. Right now unfortunately many of the german showline when compared to the american line is often pretty simular. GENERALLY I would say the german showline is a bit more consistent in showing 'working' traits but I have also worked some american lines that are simular. The biggest problem with the german showline is nerve stability and strong working traits in my opinion. And, in case anyone asks, I have worked dogs from the TOP german showlines. Some of them have not been able to stand up to the pressure needed for herding training. Some have very good drives but are very stubborn and have no biddabiity which also makes them useless in herding , no matter what the course or program. (including HGH). The biggest problem with many american showline is their type/conformation. Most would never be able to work all day. THier nerves are often also not good and many don't have the working drive/traits needed. Having said that I have worked some that have surprised me but....they are often the exception. I have tested over 100 german shepherds in herding and almost ALL show some herding traits or workability in herding. How far they could go in the training is another thing. Many would not be able to go past the first levels successfully as they would not be able to take the pressure to do it. In my opinion taking a dog to the advanced level in many courses likely takes a better nerved dog than C course would. Again this might depend on the course and governing body. CKC has a better herding program than AKC when it comes to arena work/trials. Our boundary course is very simular to to the AKC C course, but our arena course is very different.

Winnie, have you heard about the researcher who is trying to identify the gene/s in herding dogs that affect their ability to herd? If I understand it correctly, his goal is to isolate those genes and try to determine why many herding dogs retain the instinct to herd although their ancestors have not had the opportunity to do so for several generations. I believe this is the same researcher who has agree to search for the gene/s that contribute to bloat/torsion in the breed and he is currently seeking blood samples from GSD's for that project.

IMO if imported GSD's keep getting bigger, bulkier and shorter in leg, they too may not be good herding prospects. I don't think you can stress enough the importance of retaining the survival charactersitics of this breed. Herding dogs must be agile and athletic. I see a lot of GSD's in photos and in the flesh that appear to me to be too overdone to herd sheep 24/7. I assume this is the result of breeding for a masculine dog for the show ring?

I don't believe you will ever identify 'genes' per sey that identify herding dogs. It is a combination of so many things. I would assume you (and the researcher) and thinking more of herding 'instinct' but there is SO much more than that for a 'good' herding/working dog. A dog with good instinct but lacks in all other areas is not necessarily an asset to the shepherd (person). In fact, instinct can be a small part of the whole picture depending on what it is you want your herding dog to do. There are no perfect herding dogs. Each person may require different traits in different quantities for the job/work/stock that they are needed for etc. This is true in an individual breed as much as it is for other breeds. Even in the border collie, you will find some people who genetically need something different for cattle and the job they need done than that from a person who needs a dog to work sheep/ducks etc. I find it interesting that a researcher is trying to identify 'genes' for herding, when even within the herding people/community you will likley come up with quite a variety of opinions on what those might be....lol.

Blitzen, do you know who the person is that is trying to do this genetic work? It might be helpful for them to talk to some folk working their dogs in herding and see what he gets for 'traits' etc. Is he confining this work to the german shepherd?

I have tried to find his name, but can't. Someone else reading this may know. I think the details were published in the GSDCA magazine, "The Review". I did post it all here a month or so ago, but it look like it's been deleted from the archives. He was looking for blood samples from dogs that survived bloat and from any close relatives. I think a few here were going to participate in the study, so they might be able to answer your question. It was a researcher in Florida, but that's all I can remember right now. As far as I know the study on herding genes was not confined to the GSD, other herding breeds are involved. I'll keep looking and if I do find any links to his studies, I'll post them here.

Thanks, as I said, I can't see how the study for herding genes would be extremely helpful. I remember your post on the bloat study. I also happen to be one of those people who feel that there is more involved with bloat than genetics. Now....I might be willing to say that some lines/dogs are more predisposed to bloat but I also think other contributing factors have to be there for it to happen. JMHO.

Found it!! Dr. Mathew Pletcher The Scripps Rsearch Institute Bldg RF-1, Room 110 5353 Parkside Dr. Jupiter, FL 33458 I don't know what DNA studies like this one will turn up; maybe nothing, maybe something very profound, who knows. I am glad someone in the world of academia is interested enough to address dog-related DNA studies pro bono. In the past, dog breeders were lucky to receive any funding or even the slightest interest for any disease or condition that did not have a human model that would profit from any new information learned. Studies dedicated to searching for the gene/s that influence the herding ability and the development of bloat/torsion( or not) in the GSD will not profit the human race per se, so in many ways the breed is fortunate to be a subject of this research. IMO only good can come of this. As well as identifying the genetic markers herding dogs need to inherit, the same research could also reveal that certain genes in herding breeds may actually prevent them from expressing the instinct to herd sheep depending on the mode of inheritance and expression. Time will tell, it's a brave new world.