Border Collie Wars - Page 2

Thank you for those links, Spooks. It was interesting to see that the border collie is not recognized here in Canada by the CKC, due to the strong opposition by the border collie herding club! 

Imported collies are placed on a 'B' list if they are from conformation lines, until they can prove their herding ability, while those from working lines go in the 'A' list.

A picture of my two.  The yappy typical BC female, she is 2 in June and then the more laid back, aloof male WC, he is 5 yrs old at the end of October. Both have totally different coats.

What if the GSDCA demanded the GSD have at least one working title before it could get a championship or go 'select'?  Are there ANY AKC breeds that demand performance titles of their dogs? Or is that only breed clubs that are not under AKC? (The majority of border collies are NOT AKC registered, as the breeders realize what a joke the AKC is.)....Sunsilver

Sigh.... again, the AKC is a registry, plain and simple. They are not in the business of dictating to breeders of any breed which dogs they can or cannot breed. One does not need to be a member of any specific breed club to breed a litter of registered dogs. As long as they keep a paperwork trail on each litter that complies with AKC rules and regulations they are generally home free.

AKC requires that each member parent club sets the bar for their specific breed; for GSD breeders that, of course, is the GSDCA. That club can make rules that apply to special awards offered by that club - ie no GSD can receive the award of OB Victor/Victrix if it has any faults that would DQ it from the breed ring....selects must have normals hips and elbows, etc. The GSDCA does require working titles for most of their special awards such as the PAM, ATTA, Dual Award and Dual Award Excellent. They count BH's. AD's and IPO titles as well as AKC OB and rally titles.

Given the variety of working venues this breed particpates in, what would you suggest would be fair pre-breeding titles for all GSD's? CD, CDX, UD, UDT, UDX, UDX2, RN, RA, RE, barn hunt, CGC, CGGA, AKC herding, IPO, dock diving? Also consider that the GSDCA can only regulate their members and most GSD breeders in the US are not GSDCA members. 

 

What is an "A" list and a "B" list per the CKC?

Thanks SS very interesting information.

 I used to raise the Jack Russels.  One appealing feature was that they were not part of the AKC.  We needed them for pest control so we bred for three main things:

1) short legs.  Long legged ones had a harder time staying down the hole and pushing the dirt out.  The ground hog would back fill his way deeper into the tunnel and the Jacks would go down one, two, three in a row and pass the dirt to each other and then out.  For rats, getting under obstacles in barns was the goal.   A short, muscular dog was better than the long legged ones seen on the Swedish site mentioned above. 

2) Large, strong, teeth, (I have a friend with a 'border collie' that has smaller teeth than some of my Jacks). 

3)  The will to kill and stick with the job for hours.  No toying but snap, snap, snap.  As many and as fast as possible. 

There were a couple other important features of a good dog such as good mothering and ability to work in a pack.  Coat type and color had no relevance. 

Even then we were starting to see a lack of good breeding material, taller dogs with no attention to teeth size and a general gentling of the breed to make them more biddable as house pets.    

http://www.akc.org/events/title-recognition-program/working-dog/

Blitzen, CKC has NOTHING to do with the BC registration. It's the Canadian Border Collie Association that keeps the A and B lists:

In Canada, Agriculture Canada has recognised the Canadian Border Collie Association^[39] as the registry under the Animal Pedigree Act for any Border Collie that is designated as "Pure Breed" in Canada.

The criteria used are based on herding lineage rather than appearance. It is a two-tiered registry in that dogs imported that are registered with a foreign Kennel Club that does hold conformation shows are given a "B" registration, whereas those that come directly from other working registries are placed on the "A" registry.

Recently, the Canadian Kennel Club has polled its members to decide if Border Collies should be included on the CKC "Miscellaneous List". This designation would allow Border Collie owners the ability to compete in all CKC events, but the CKC would not be the registering body. People who compete in performance events support the move. The CBCA is against this designation.

So which titles should AKC require in order for a GSD to produce a registered litter?  Should CKC do that too? I wonder if the die hard working line breeders here would register litters with the AKC (assuming they do now) if they had to put some sort of AKC/CKC/German performance title on their breeding stock first. How would that work? I just can't see blaming AKC/CKC/the parent club for bad choices made by breeders. The show people and the working people can't even decide on which dog is a good dog and which a crapper; I don't see this breed ever agreeing on anything let alone setting rules to prove which dogs are worthy of being bred. The German SV does it, are their dogs much better for it? A rhetorical question. 

There are many breed  clubs like the CBCA in the US. They hold their own trials, approve their own judges,have their own registeries, set their own requirements. The people who participate in those clubs don't need AKC's blessings..  They are already doing it all their own way.

Blitzen, what bothers me is that in the fight to bring the BC into the AKC, the AKC favoured the breed club that had NO performance requirements. This seems to be culturally ingrained in the AKC, and I, for one, would VERY much like to see that change!!

I don't give a flying flip what working criteria the breed club decides on, I'd just like to see some committment from the AKC to see dogs as something more than a puppet on a string trained to prance around a show ring!  They should be encouraging the breed clubs to have higher standards, not discouraging them!

Look at what the UK Kennel Club has done to encourage better breeding practises and more functional dogs! I can't remember the details, but I think the GSDs were banned from certain show venues for awhile due to dogs that could barely stand up because their hocks were so weak!

Let's ask the working dog people like Joanro, Haz, or HD which titles they think their breeding dogs should have in order for their progeny to be eligible for AKC registration. And which titles would be beneficial for the breed in general.