Genetic idiopathic epilepsy - Page 2

I totally understand the concept of the genetic bottleneck when breeders try to select for every item.  As I understand in epilepsy in particular it appears to be very complex and not well understood. It is also in mixed breeds so even total outcrosses are not immune to it. This dog's epilepsy was just so violent and so difficult to "manage".  He was put down and did die loved, He did not die during a seizure, but that would have been next in all likelihood. 25 seizures in one day despite medical intervention.He was post-ictal and ill for several more days if not a couple of weeks.  Medications adjusted and more tests done to no avail. 

If you go back many years (1970's) you will find many epileptic males who were widely used.  Their names are Ludwig of Charavigne, Ramacon Philanderer, Ramacon Swashbuckler (Crufts Best in Show), Quadrille of Eveley, Syrious Norge and all of these are behind two VA dogs in recent Years.  Add to this Eclipse of Eveley and his sisters Efne and Enchantment (all UK Champions), Rossfort Premonintion, and more.

Who really knows how far this has bred on?  Certainly it must of done in the case of Lornaville and others who support this side of the breed and are know as Alsatianists. 

Mackenzie

Epilepsy has no identifiable cause in about half of those with the condition. In about half the people with epilepsy, the condition may be traced to various factors.

• Genetic influence. Some types of epilepsy, which are categorized by the type of seizure you experience, run in families. In these cases, it's likely that there's a genetic influence.

  Researchers have linked some types of epilepsy to specific genes, though it's estimated that up to 500 genes could be tied to the condition. For most people, genes are only part of the cause of epilepsy. Certain genes may make a person more sensitive to environmental conditions that trigger seizures.
  
  In the case of the pedigree of Jazz shown above as submitted by Sunsilver,  the continuous inbreeding of the bloodline for many generations surely contributed to the potential of epilepsy and other genetic disorders developing.  In the case of Jazz I would call the inbreeding reckless and not based on any science or good canine breeding concepts.  

Recently a dog was diagnosed with epilepsy and was put to sleep.  The bloodline behind the dog was all German dogs.  I understand that there are few more cases that have come to light from all German bloodlines.  From this we can be sure that Gernany has the problem and, as usual, secrecy rules.   All of these dogs were born in approximatly the last 3/4 years.

Mackenzie

Epilepsy in humans and almost surely in dogs is very complex .. 50% of human cases have no known or diagnosed cause.  Genetics is and can be a component of epilepsy but environmental causes from food to injury are often the trigger and as previously mentioned about 50% of cases have no known or identifiable cause in humans.

BooBoo, why don't you READ some of the links provided about CANINE epilepsy, and EDUCATE yourself? (Hint: they are IN THE THREAD.)

When I worked for a vet, the most common medication I dispensed was for epilepsy. Whether it was due to genetic causes or not, it was definitely a sign SOMETHING was very wrong in the dog world!

Mackenzie, the only way these problems are going to be licked are by full disclosure. The days of shoot, shovel and shut up need to be put behind us.

With that in mind, would you care to share the lineage of the affected dogs?

If there is something in this thread that suggests the causes of epilepsy in dogs is diffferent from humans point it out.  Several here jumped to the conclusion that the cause is genetic in canines and the facts do not bear that conclusion out.  Sunsilver what you dispensed for dogs or whether the diagnosis of epilepsy was even correct doesn't concern me.. help me here but the diagnosis is not based on any diagnostic test is it??  Veterinarians are quite fond of blaming anything they can't explain on genetics because that gets them off the hook for not being able to tell degenerative myleopathy from a broken or cracked toe nail (that actually happened).  Some of the dogs discussed here were inbred but the dog originally posted about was not as far as the thread suggests and as far as you know Sunsilver the epilepsy could have been caused by a bump on the head as epilepsy can be caused by just such an injury.  If anyone needs to read it is you Sunsilver as time and science have passed Willis by and much of what he wrote about genetics has been proven to be simplistic or totally wrong.  

Well, the title of the thread, for instance...GENETIC IDIOPATHIC (meaning cause unknown, not due to a bump on the head or chemical imbalance.) EPILEPSY.

Here's a quote from one of the links above:
 

Dogs at Increased Risk Epilepsy seems to be more common in large-breed dogs and slightly more common in males, although any breed or gender can be affected. Idiopathic epilepsy (that with no discernable cause) is seen most frequently in certain dog breeds, including the Toy, Miniature and Standard Poodle, German Shepherd, Australian Shepherd, Boxer, Cocker Spaniel, Keeshond, Dachshund, Alsatian, Vizsla, Shetland Sheepdog, Saint Bernard, Siberian Husky, Welsh Corgi, Wire-Haired Fox Terrier, Bernese Mountain Dog, Irish Wolfhound, Irish Setter, English Springer Spaniel, Finnish Spitz, Labrador Retriever, Golden Retriever, Collie, Border Collie, Belgian Tervuren and Beagle. Epilepsy is considered to be hereditary in these breeds and typically is first seen in young dogs between one and five years of age that present with generalized seizure episodes but otherwise have normal mental and physical function. Dogs with an epileptic parent are at a greatly increased risk of developing epilepsy.

Well if it is idiopathic .. cause unknown .. then it falls into the 50% of epilepsy cases with a complex cause that is not understood.  Most of these idiopathic cases are believed to be caused by the interaction of environment and genetics just as 90% of human cancer cases are not caused by genetics or hereditary factors alone but the interaction of genetics and environment in large part.  Read up on it!!  Epilepsy is not considered to be a hereditary disease or syndrome period.  Most of the drugs used to treat epilepsy in dogs are human anti-seizure drugs used off label for dogs.

Sunsilver I can name the two VA dogs because the information is in the public domain and available to anyone who knows how to research.  In fact it can be tracked back through this database.  The two VA males are Hagadahls Figo and his son Ballack.  I have to say that I personally have no knowledge personally to the effect that these two males have had epilepsy or produced epilepsy.

With regard to the epileptic dog confirmed as being epileptic I can only say that the sire was by Quenn v Loher Weg x Tonya v Regina Pacis and the mother is by Yello v Haus Schwertzel x Fina v Langenbungert.  In the other cases Quenn is present in each case.  I also have to say that I have no knowledge personally that Quenn is epileptic or produced epilepsy in his progeny.  I have no knowledge of the complete bloodlines of these other four dogs as it was denied to me.

I discovered this information regarding the second Paragraph because my female is by a Quenn son and her mother breeding is similarTo Tonya v Regina Pacis.

Mackenzie