Does good bitework = good protection work? - Page 2

Just for the sake of clarity, many dogs fit under good solid dogs, but lack civil drive."Good solid dogs" is subjective today. Many dogs will do great Schutzhund work but would make poor protection dogs, meaning that is what they are used for and this is the expectation for them, protection. Unfortunatly all the training in the world will not make up for lack of civil drive and the sharpness and the courage that is needed for a dependable P.P. dog. Much is genetic and you simply cannot do good agitation work with a dog that doesn't have it and expect him to work for you. If you want a serious protection dog then start with a dog that has those specific tools, waiting to be brought out. You simply cannot make something that's not there. Any good trainer knows this, and ,how to bring out what IS there through agitation. But he also knows in his heart which ones have the makeup to really do the job and which ones don't.For all that disagree with this, that's fine, but please hear this, SPEND THE TIME TO FIND A TRAINER THAT HAS INTEGRITY TO GO ALONG WITH SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE!!!!! Save yourself some grief. Hope this helps.

Maybe you do not understand what I mean by a good solid dog? Good drives, temperment, solid nerves but is not defensive. The agitation brings out the drive to bite. Agreed you need the right dog but that goes for Sch training too, why would breed and train dogs with no courage etcc?

klekoni, It sure helps even if it is prey drive.. If the dog is young you can channel everything towards the sleeve to build the confidence needed and then later when the dog is more mature you can bring out the aggression towards the helper without the equipment. BTW, GSDfan there is no whip when you trial. So if you have a dog with a problem like this do not use the whip. It is that simple. You know the dog has problems which makes it not for repro but there is no reason to continue to use the whip during training. GSDfan, there is a thing I like to do in training and that is use the whip for a while and then not take it out for a few months at a time. This way as a helper I do not get lazy and use it too ofen!!!!!!! I have had Dobes & Rotts in the group and the whip is a no no with them most of the time. Does this make them bad for sport????? They are what they are and I train them the best way for each of them. Breedworthness is a whole other thread! Best Regards, Dennis

Can anyone tell me what it means when a dog reacts better with noise, shaker bottles and whip or yelling from the decoy? My puppy seems bored if a big show isn't made for him. He seems to feed off of the challenge and faned fear of the decoy when he barks. I see him target the decoy too, not the tug or sleeve. To me it seems better suited for PP than bitework on the field. Anybody else have an opinion on that?

Something to think about, I've heard people mention that real attackers don't make a lot of noise...so a really good PP should ideally bite as long as he is told to, passive or not. Hence why some sharpness is favoured.

Hundguy, thanks for your input, as soon as I realized the whip was not going to fly I asked for it not to be used anymore, which was fine with the helper. I would probably continue with her if she was my only dog (just to learn and for fun) or if she was at all capable of getting at least a SchH1, but I have another dog that kicks ass, so I figured I'd concentrate all my efforts into him.

Keeping in mind that I am new...lol feel free to correct me if I am wrong. My dog was specifically purchased for PP but he is titled and would make a fantastic sport dog. Knowledge is the MOST critical point you must gain before deciding what your dog is best suited for. Having that said it sounds to me you are not experienced enough in making that determination-not trying to be offensive; find a good club that has knowledable people that can put the dog through various tests and properly evaluate him/her, listen to their observations and try not to take offense if it's not what you want to hear. The dog is what it is right now, but he/she is still very young and not fully mature so some of the things that may be a downside right now may very well get corrected with the proper training and time. PP and SCH are 2 very different types of training methods, at least at our club anyways. My dog is versatile so we work him in both areas. He however is 3 years old-what he is is what he is. PP work is mostly done with hidden equipment with him, real life scenarios and this I've noticed brings out a much more serious side to him. When we are training for SCH he knows it's more a "game". If your dog is biting out of fear this is not gonna work for PP-in a real life situation he may leave you holding the bag or with a law suit when you can't call him/her off. The question I have is-do you have a REAL need for a PP dog?? Because a well bred GSD with proper training will instinctively protect. If your concern is will your dog bite in a for real situation then my suggestion would be to get the dog introduced to SCH, take care of perfecting all the obedience for the control you'll need and when he/she matures a little more have him/her tested with hidden equipment and/or courage tested WITH THE PROPER TRAINER WHO IS TOTALLY EXPERIENCED. Good Luck!

4pack, be careful about pushing the puppy too soon. It sounds like it needs to be "loaded" (pumped up) to work. In my opinion, your puppy should be begging to get on the field. (Barking, whining, excited.) If you need to load it up now, you may have a lot of trouble in the future.

4pack, if he's targeting the decoy,more likely than not it is because the decoy is not getting the dog to focus and is moving his body too much. The decoy may need to work on his skills a little. or alot. Can't say having not seen the decoy. Also puppy gets pumped with all the activity simply because it's working in prey,however he does sound bored to me,again perhaps the decoy is not reading him correctly and expecting too much for the puppy's age or maturity level. Be careful,this can ruin him. He should be worked less IMO. Never work him until he is satisfied or bored. Always stop leaving him wanting more. This might be only one bite,you have to read the dog. Hope this helps. One more thing, he needs to learn to target long before he should be allowed to bite the man. That's my .02 good luck

4pack Be careful as it sounds like the dog is learning to be reactive vs. active. The dog MUST start everything or they will learn to just sit an be quiet till Sesame Street character appears. Dog will then go high but will be unable to sustain the drive unless something else happens fairly quickly. I would high suggest you find someone who is good at tug work to walk you through. Remember the dog must start everything and so make him bark to go out, eat and play. Always put him away at the peak of his drive so he learns to come out loaded. My look at this. Bob