Bad Breeder in Red Bluff, California - Page 2

Animules, The theory that the parvo virus is a mutant cat virus is very old and has long since been disproven. Just like other infections, there is always a chance a particular virus or bacterium can mutate, but there is no clear evidence this has happened with parvo. Parvo is a nasty disease. The important thing for everyone here to take away from this discussion, including the buyer of the pup are the following: 1. What D.H. and Bob-O have written are very important and EVERYONE who breeds or buys a litter must know this information. Parvo and some other diseases are very, very difficult to eradicate, depending on many factors. Vaccinations at appropriate times, and making sure they are not compromised in some way (such as having not been kept cool) is very important. 2. Puppies should NEVER be taken anywhere until they are vaccinated. When taken pups to the vet, keep them off the floor and make sure the exam table is disinfected before your eyes and before putting the pup down. Do NOT take a pup to show everyone at PetSmart or the local dog park, or even allow people to handle it until it is older and has been vaccinated. If you do allow people to handle the pup, make sure they wash their hands and have not been around a lot of dogs whose health status you do not know. 3. Almost all breeders say they will provide "a lifetime of support", answer questions, be available for help etc. The truth is, all too many breeders immediately sever ties when any type of problem is brought up, regardless of whether the pup is showing signs of illness, limping, having behavior problems etc. In my business and as the only GSD rescue in my state, I get many phone calls and emails from all over the state and indeed, from other parts of the country, from people who have bought a pup or a dog, are having some sort of problem. All of a sudden, the breeder/importer wants nothing to do with them. Some of these breeders hate me because I end up getting involved, but if they would do what they said they were going to do when they so eagerly accepted the money for the dog, then I would not get these damned phone calls and emails. As it is, most of the time I hear about the same few breeders/importers in my state. So if someone calls me asking for a recommendation, you can be certain these people are not recommended. Many problems could easily be solved between buyer and breeder/importer if the breeder/importers would only honor their word. They don't. These are breeder/importers to stay away from. When "doing your homework" seek out people in the GSD world who are familiar with lots of breeders to get their opinion. Do not simply take the breeders' word or one or two peoples' recommendation as being gospel and proof the breeder is ethical. That being said, for the original poster, you may have a very difficult time trying to prove that the breeder was negligent. As has been pointed out, it is absolutely possible that the breeder did everything he/she was supposed to do to protect the health of the pup but for some reason, the pup has contracted the disease. Have you ever had a dog before? Did someone else live in your house who had a dog? Where did you take the pup after getting it? Again, the sad fact is that there are many possibilities as to where the dog contracted this disease. This is one reason why at my facility no dogs are allowed on the property for events, boarding or training or just because they belong to a friend, without proof of vaccinations and those being up to date. I cannot afford to ever have a parvo outbreak here. To have it would likely mean I would have sick pups should I breed a litter. I might even have adult dogs come down with it. Some of these diseases are really difficult to treat, can be fatal and can wreak havoc for years after an outbreak. Prevention is worth it. Don't want to vaccinate a dog? You won't be coming here!

Here is also something to think about! I never let anyone visit my litter if they have been out looking at other litters! All shoes are removed and I provide crocks shoes for people to wear! They are a little pricey but easy to disinfect with bleach and water or parvosol! And thorough hand washing infront of me! I was a vet tech for 8 years and have seen time and time again whole litters effected by parvo when the puppies are shown to prospective buyers. These buyers had been to see other litters and brought parvo with them on their shoes, mostly. I take no chances! As a vet tech, I never wore my scrubs and shoes into my house or kennel area if there was a parvo puppy at the clinic! Vickie

TMartin, First let me say, I am so sorry for you loss !! I know the pain of Parvo all too intimately, which is why I wanted to address this. I manage an animal shelter and we vaccinate everything that comes through the door, One of the problems is that if they are Pre exposed and then we vaccinate them with the modified live virus, One of two things happens, They break parvo almost immediately within 24 to 48 hours, Or they break it in about a week, The ones that break within a day or 2 are hard cases, the ones that break in about a week typically survive with some intense supportive care. Puppies are so vulnerable anyway, Now in a case where puppies have not been pre exposed and are vaccinated, Upon exposure if they are "stressed" it is not un common to see them contract Parvo and fall ill. Here's a scenerio for you, buy a new pair of shoes, Take them in the box to the park put them on at the park bench, walk a 20 ft. circle on the grass take the shoes off again put them back in the box or a plastic bag, take the shoes to into some lab and have them look for Parvo,parasite, and so on this is what Our vet here for the shelter tells people when they get upset that a puppy they have adopted gets parvo, It's his way of explaining that we have done all we can to prevent it, But sometimes it's one of those things that "just happens" and in a "Stressed" state a dog is 90% more likely to succum to exposed viruses, bacterial infections, and litterally a gamet of illnesses. Personally I don't know the breeder you speak of, But I would say that in my "experienced" position I do beleive you will find it very difficult to get any Veterinarian to speak on your behalf, and you can bet this breeder will be able to and the vet will be given expert status by the court. I personally think your lawsuit may be thrown out, However if all is not yet lost this breeder "may" be willing to replace the pup ? you had the pup 3 days most breeders have a 72 hour mandatory veterinarian visit and will replace any puppy that does not health check clear. Was this type of contract in place ? I hope you find resolve, I hope what I have written makes some sense for you and your able to gain some clearification about Parvo from it, Wish you Luck with your situation.

IMO it comes down to education, and the lack of it. We state right off the bat that we limit guarantees for Parvo to 24 hours in pups. If nothing else it gets the buyers attention. If the buyer must take their pup places, it is at their own risk and they have been informed. There is something else important that people can take away from this situation: Communication is important at any time between buyer and seller. When something devastating like this happens, the first reaction of the buyer is usually with anger, and that can make proper communication very difficult from there on in. The seller does not need to put up with abuse, and unfortunately sometimes things are headed that way. That is when communication breaks down. If the seller is aware that there will be anger coming his way, it may be a lot easier to deal with it and diffuse the situation. If a buyer can maintain their cool in a situation like that they will find the seller a lot more open to suggestions and assistance, and also a lot more open to disussing options and the possibility of a replacement or partial replacement, even if the breeder/seller is not at fault. Sometimes it is best to let things simmer down for a while and then get back to them later. Threats of lawsuits usually shut the doors permanently. The breeder also just lost a pup that he has spent at least 8 weeks raising, and with most that does not go by quite so easily either. The breeder may be angry at the buyer for putting the pup at possible risk. It is never just one sided. Sometimes life is not fair. That was very well put. I think we should think about that one a lot more often when discussing things on this board.

Powerhouse- I also have been known to put a shallow pan with a towel in it and 25% bleach solution, with another mat to dry feet on right outside the front entry door through which all visitors must pass through which all visitors, puppy buyers or not, must pass. Knock on wood, I haven't had parvo in my kennel since the 80's in CA. (I'm now in PA) Shelley

I have one better than that... I meet people at front gate, hand them a walmart bag and a long tie, put your feet in the bag, keep your car or vehicle outside by premises., and have u been at another kennel today, here clean your hands with this solution and limit where they go picnic table, sit and stay, I will bring pup to you and see my kennels, they are right over there......if they have been marketing that day, thats all they get for their nickel......one bag for each foot of every one in the car......

and it takes 7 days for an injection to become totally effective.............do not take a puppy to vets office for shots without asking vet first....he will segregate u or shoot in car or outside if he has an epidemic or those he has seen with it, and he will take all means to keep ur pup safe....most people go trapsing into the vet, new pup in arm and I almost cant keep mouth shut and in pets mart , I see the same thing......I got into the most heated argument with a young man three weeks ago...had a six week old Lab pup in arms to show off , and he approached me and I said " why do u have that pup in here.....did not the breeder tell u not to take it in public till it had all its shots..../ 'No he said, she said it was covered by its mothers immune system and I almost died on the site......I spent 10 minutes explaining, but what are u to do when Im a stranger ranting about what a so called breeder did and said...He said she told him he didnt nneed any shots till 9 weeks old....I went and got the trainer, who in our Petsmart is the best...she is real and got her to tell him , the facts and go get the first shot...could be too late and already exposed...who knows,,,,,ignorance....

i read or was told a long time ago that all three initial vaccinations are required in order for dogs/pups to have built up enough immunity to fend off the parvo virus. i won't swear that this is true, but none the less, i don't take chances either. especially not with pups. if you buy one at 8-9 wks there is no way they can have enough immunity to do battle with parvo.....shots or no shots. i'm glad several folks have spoken up about this. i would not be too hasty in throwing rocks at a breeder, becuase it is possible they have done everything right and still the pup became infected.

For what its worth guys the puppy was symptomatic the day I took her home. She didn't eat and her energy level diminished over the next couple days till we got her diagnosed. I was naive enough to believe he gave shots, although he couldn't provide proof. The entire thing was my fault for dealing with such a shady character. I can post his full name and address if that is allowable. Im not excusing my actions in dealing with a poor breeder, just trying to prevent someone else from doing the same. Also, I dont need to win a lawsuit to really win. I think of it as holding someone responsible for their actions. AKC will do nothing about him, I might as well take legal action. If enough people did it he might stop breeding or change his ways. Doubtful, yes, but its my responsibility to try. The puppy is now 9 months and we are finally back to "mostly" healthy. We're getting pretty close to a perfect BH routine off leash. We just learned the hard way its better to pay more for a pup from a good breeder. Someone please let me know if I can post his address.

Hey Blitzen - I've heard/read your complaints about this before. My understanding is that you emailed the breeder, who was in the midst of an out-of-state move and did not have email access. When the breeder did hear about your dog's cancer, he called you immediately (stone sober, I might add). Even if the breeder received your email and gotten back to you right away, what would you have him do? As a GSD breeder of nearly 15 years, I can safely say that dogs get cancer and die. It's never pleasant, but it is a fact of life. So PLEASE stop with the bashing.