Any Breeders use PennHip for their stud dogs? - Page 2

I have used Pennhipp for dogs I have used for stud in the past, it tells me a small piece of puzzle in reference to status of actual dogs hips. OVC, BVA, OFA! All do the same thing. The hips are the same no matter which means you use to measure them through radiograph. 

I've never used it and my stud dog is not PennHip'd because his hips look fine, pretty clearly OFA Good so I didn't see the point on paying so much more for additional x-rays and certifications when it's clear the hips are fine. I use to have my dogs x-rayed and examined by a vet radiologist whose research PennHip is based on and he was no longer doing PennHip.  I do not remember the exact reasons but that was telling to me.  OFA was fine for him so it was fine for me and so far, I've never had a dog with hip issues or borderline so I don't need to do additional hip certifications.  If a breeder asks I will happily let them see the x-rays or take them to their vet if it helps make a breeding decision (I have all my stud dog's x-rays, hips and elbows prelim and 2 years, and spine at 2 years).

I don't think we can criticize a-stamps done before 2 years when PennHip can be done at 16 weeks....

 

My comments I am about to share are not directed to anyone in particular :

How can both tests be the same when OFA and PennHip are looking at 2 COMPLETELY different things? From my research, OFA is proving it is not a valid indicator a dog's future potential to develop hip dsyplasia. Just because a dog's hips look good on OFA Films does not mean they are screwed on tight. It has been proven that Laxity is the single best indicator of future DJD. So, I am baffled how one could say they are the same. Interestingly, dogs that fail OFA can pass PennHip and never take a bad step as their hips, though not perfect in conformation, are screwed on so tight that they do not develop dsyplasia. Likewise, dogs regularly pass OFA with Excellent and Good only to end up with very poor scores in PennHip and develop hip dsyplasia later in life. 

But, I think it not used because it is expensive; you need to find an experienced vet; and most dogs can pass OFA far more easily. 

On the age...they are looking for 2 separate things. Most dogs will pass OFA prelims/SV at 12 months. They are not looking at laxity. But, I agree that I don't think any test should be declared valid unless the dog is over 2 years. But, prelims will certainly weed out any moderate/severe dysplasia.

If science says to you, the best indicator of a dog's future potential to develop Hip Dysplasia is joint laxity and one test will test for it while another doesn't than how could one say that test is not important enough to perform?

Sarah

What about injuries when doing PennHip? I never thought twice about this issue until recently.  A couple of people in my club are swearing that a dog can be injured during PennHip.  Does anyone have any experience with this?  Are the injuries typically permanent or something lesser? Also what age is ideal to do PennHip and were these anecdotally reported injures due to age and not the process?

I'm sure it is a possibility.  Anytime you're stressing joints under anesthesia, you are exposed to injury risk.  that goes for humans anyway, I can't imagine dogs would be any different in that regard.  The body no longer responds to stressors when it gets close to the physiological joint space limits that prevent injury, and now a human is adding in stresses to asses the anatomical joint limits.  I have no studies to show it's happening, but I have no doubt that injury can happen in those situations.

Dr. Gail Smith-pennhip vet


1)"After many studies and much close scrutiny of our data, we have no evidence to suggest that the procedure is any more harmful than the OFAstress-radiographic procedure. Our data is conclusive that neitherprocedure increases joint laxity in either tight- or loose-hipped dogs. Certainly in dogs having the extreme laxity and pain of CHD, any manipulation of the hip (eg., OFA, PennHIP or simple physical examination) may cause transient discomfort. However, no long term pain or untoward effects of such manipulation have been noted. To address your question of how the OFA method differs from the distraction procedure, consider the following example. The PennHIP distraction procedure is akin to pulling on your index finger while relaxing all your forearm musculature. You can appreciate displacement at your MCP joint (knuckle) and if you pull hard enough you may even elicit cavitation (cracking of the knuckle) however, the procedure itself is neither harmful nor exceedingly uncomfortable. Even people who acquire the habit of cracking their knuckles regularly in this manner, though socially annoying, do not suffer orthopaedic consequences of their habit. In contrast, the extreme hip extension of the OFA procedure is like taking your finger and bending it backward until it will go no further. I think you will agree that the latter procedure is more painful and that the discomfort lingers. Neither procedure, however, appears to be associated with long term pain or untoward consequences. "

2)"After many studies, both in the PennHIP laboratory and in independent laboratories, there is no evidence to suggest that the PennHIP procedure is any more harmful than the standard hip-extended procedure. Certainly, in dogs having extreme laxity and pain associated with hip dysplasia, any manipulation of the hip (e.g. OFA, PennHIP, routine physical examination) can potentially cause transient discomfort (1- 2 days). PennHIP is aware of only a handful of cases (from over 20,000 dogs) that have exhibited discomfort after the procedure. All such claims are followed up and no long-term pain or untoward effects have been observed. The OFA has issued a statement to breed clubs suggesting that the PennHIP method harms hips. There is absolutely no basis to this claim."


Also:

 80% of dogs evaluated as “normal” by the OFA were found to have hip laxity by PennHIP testing that predisposed them to developing hip osteoarthritis in the future.

 

"Dogs judged as normal by the OFA harbored clinically important passive hip joint laxity as determined via the PennHIP distraction index. Results suggested that OFA scoring radiographs (x-rays) underestimated susceptibility to osteoarthritis in dogs. The presence of these “normal” dogs in the breeding pool may slow the progress of decreasing hip dysplasia prevalence.

 

Powers MY, Karbe GT, Gregor TP, McKelvie PJ, Culp WT, Fordyce HH, Smith GK. Evaluation of the relationship between Orthopedic Foundation for Animals’ hip joint scores and PennHIP distraction index values in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2010; 237: 532-541. "

Abstract

 

ahh, a write up from a penn hip vet, no bias there.  Distracting joints under anesthesia is not the same as distracting your knuckle as she likes to make the analogy with.  that right there is enough for me to discredit everything else she has to say.

I have no dog in the fight, I don't have an opinion on which is better.  I see marketing, plain old marketing at work here.  I know physiology, and injury can most definitely occur with stressing joints while under anesthesia in humans.  Are dogs different?

Not sure anyone said the results of the different hip tests would be the same, but I did say the HIPS would be the same no matter which means you use to test them. The reading of hip schemes is often an opinion, the actual status of the hips is a tangible fact.....it doesn't change with the measuring tool. The application of the tool can change or the interpretation of the x-rays can vary from person to person.....but the hips are the same either way.

zdog, I am guessing there would have been a huge public outcry if PennHip hurt dogs. It has been in existence since 1983.

Gustav, yes the conformation of the hips are the same in both film methods but the key indicator as to whether a dog will become dsyplastic is joint laxity. OFA does not test for this. PennHip does. You can't tell from looking at the OFA x-ray view.

I am just shocked that I am in the minority in exploring PennHip. I am definitely not an expert. I did it once years ago on a young dog I had as my vet recommended it as the dog was limping a lot and stiff getting up. She was fine after the procedure but her hip score put her in a category where her hips were worse than 90% of GSDs.  But, I never really cared to research it until I became more involved in dogs.  I am now training IPO and have a much greater appreciation of sound structure!

I am by no means an expert or spokesperson!! I am still learning and if I could find breeders that use PennHip to gain a greater education that would be nice!!

Sarah

I'm guessing there is a huge giant gaping hole in the public's understanding of OFA's or Penn Hip.  Whether they outcry or not, isn't really relevant because chances are they don't even know what we're talking about to even  have an opinion.

And to be clear i'm not saying it happens frequently, or the damage is debilitating.  I AM saying that joint distraction and manipulation under anesthesia can cause joint damage or injury.  That was the question posed, yes?  It does in humans, it's not completely safe and I imagine it is similar in dogs.  Her analogy to cracking knuckles is pointless as it's not remotely similar.  I don't really fall for bullshit when it comes to selling points.

which one is better?  I don't know, don't really care.  I think my gut and my evaluation are better at deciding who I want a dog from than OFA or Penn hip, and i'm not saying they aren't important, but whether or not a dog has OFA good or has a passing Penn-hip score isn't my deal breaker.  If they fail either they're out, but one over the other doesn't really matter because I'm looking at offspring, siblings, parents, grand parents etc and if they're not lasting into double digits and work well at age 10 I don't really give a crap what their hip score is.