A Dog's Life - The Nature of Things - Page 2

Sunsilver - yeah, one is a little unstable.  He's a great dog but is a little unstable.  He's probable within the norm for the breed, but one is a little unstable.  My 2 foxies fight occasionally but usually because over a hierarchy thing.  One tends to push the other's buttons and the other is too eager to make sure the hierarchy is respected.  But that happens less and less over time.

But the dominant one just doesn't care for other dogs.  He will tolerate them if they keep their distance and that distance increases the higher the energy of the dog.  He's gotten better over time with a ton of work, but a young golden running up to him will likely find my dog hanging off it's face.  Think Psycho from the movie "Stripes" - "Anybody touch me, and I'll kill you".  Like I said, he's gotten better - he doesn't go after dogs simply because they walked too close to him.  He has learned to move to avoid dogs - but it's not something he prefers to do.  He can be loose with other dogs as long as the other dogs leave him be.  Unless one of the dogs is a male puppy - then it's a different story.  And he generally isn't the calmest thing in the world - but then that's more of a breed thing than anything else.

I take responsibility for some of it.  Taking him to off leash dog parks when he was a puppy wasn't the smartest thing in the world to do.  And neither was getting him neutered at 6 months.  But I also accept that he's a Fox Terrier and learned that a typical Fox Terrier is more of a hobby than a pet.  They are kind of like mini-Malis.  It was tough for a while, but really a blessing in disguise because I've had to seek out a good trainer.  My dog has a very high level of obedience.  He gets to engage in bite work once a week with one the best decoys in New England and I take him to events where he gets to exercise his prey drive.  I try to seek out opportunities for him  to be the dog he was bred to be and instead of always being told no or corrected.  He's probably earned more titles (excluding conformation and agility) that any other Smooth this year.

He's good.  Doesn't react to the decoy unless commanded.  Will release on command.  And will back up to a heel on command.  Will stay forever. He just has a tendency to shock little old ladies when they walk their toy poodles over to him to say hi and he responds by lunging at Fluffy with bared teeth.

The Foxies are great looking dogs and I constantly get compliments about the appearance of my dogs when I walk them.  But I tell people that they aren't for the faint of heart.


 

Dominance and Aggression are two separate things. The myth is that humans believe dominance has to be earned through aggression. In a normal environment rank is established with submission being freely offered, physical aggression is manifested as a last resort. It does the species no good to have each other maimed or killed just to establish rank in a pack. Wild wolves act differently than captive wolves,Behaviourists believe the aggression of captive wolves is magnified 40 times than is normal among wild wolves. Dominance is earned through respect. The problem with human primates is we resort to violence first to establish dominance and we transfer our primate dominance theory and mistake it with canine dominance theory. The result is we often damage canines when we use our theory of dominance. The Aloff book was OK but falls short of it's billing, there is a lot that the book does not cover.

That's very interesting, Markobytes. and backs up some theories I have held for a long, long time about human aggression. I believe war is in our genes, and was not at all suprised when primatologists found male chimpanzees actually 'make war' on adjacent tribes, and kill off all the adult males.

Anyway...that's totally off topic, and not a very popular view! Robert Ardrey's books seem to have been relegated to the scrap heap of scientific literature.

In what way does Brenda's book fall short? (I assume you've read it.) It's around 400 pages, so it is quite detailed.

I am not trying to challenge you, but trying to enlarge my knowledge base, so I can better deal with dogs like my latest rescue. If you know of other books that fill in the gaps, I'd like to read them.

It just makes me so angry that some people are willing to totally deny years and years of research on social structure of animals that live in groups (Lorenz, Fox, Schaller, Goodall) and say that dogs do not try to dominate each other, and if you just treat them nicely and offer them cookies, everything will be okay! Pack structure, as you said, is there for a REASON, and actually helps reduce aggression and keep the pack safe. The older, more experienced animals make most of the decisions, which greatly benefits the pack.

Then, of course, when these people who deny pack theory exists have a fight break out, or their dog tries to dominate them and bites or growls at them, they have NO IDEA why, and since your average pet dog trainer has no clue how to do with aggression issues either, the dog winds up being euthanized. There is a great need for people to understand the dog for WHAT IT IS. It's NOT a wolf, and it most definitely NOT a child wearing a fur coat!

    Last week I came out of Lowes Home Improvement and heard a dog barking, I looked to see a SUV parked away from all the other vehicles with it's windows cracked 3-4 inches, inside was a large dog loose, outside was a woman with a poodle saying "we just want to be friends".As I drove past I slowed down and the woman said to me "I don't know what is wrong with that dog" and I told her she probably shouldn't 't be teasing the dog, I should have asked her if she was prepared if the dog broke the glass and came out of the vehicle. Ben Franklin had a saying "familiarity breeds contempt".We have been around dogs so long people do think of them as humans and can not appreciate them as dogs. When I read older books such as Lorenz or Max's book there seems to be an appreciation of them as dogs and companions, not humans. My relationship with dogs seems to be more fuller when I think of their needs as dogs. 
   It has been a while since I read Aloff's book and from what I remember what was in there was very good and I would recommend it. I would have to reread it to see where it is lacking. A book of that undertaking probably should of had multiple authors.. I have learned some things from people who work their dogs in aggression that other experts seem to not consider. I thought the first half of the book could have been more thorough and in depth. There are a few jewels in Steven Mackenzie's Decoys and Aggression  that you won't find but should of been in Aloff''s book. 
    I can not fathom someone ignoring dominance hierarchies, training should enhance the pack bond between handler and dog.

Markobytes, wow, that takes the cake!  If you even happened to accidentally touch our car, the gal in my sig would become a raving beast. That was HER car, and don't you forget it! I am sure she likely caused numerous people to have to change their underwear over the years we had her, when they accidentally brushed against the car!

Let her out of the car, though, and with her owner's permssion, she would soon be taking treats from your hand.

She was just as protective of our home, as well.