Are you really Improving the Breed?????? - Page 2

*****but if the requirements for the titles pretty much stay the same, then the breed will pretty much stay the same. To improve the breed it would take a gradual increasing of the toughness of the testing procedures for titles****** Is that not why we are seeing new clubs like SRA and PSA today? not to forget about the KNVP or French ring. I see and hear more and more people going for their titles as they are close to what is "real"

There are still people that value Sch titles and when SchH is used as it should be, it is still a test, and can be a very hard one at that. It's not hard to pass a club trial (it isn't easy if you haven't done it before) that is true, but you can still use it in testing and maintaining your own breeding stock. I may get flamed, I don't care, but I don't think "ring" sports are any more real than Schutzhund. Different scenerios that seem "real" to some, but really what makes those sports more "real"? What do they test in those dogs that can't be tested by a legit schutzhund trial?

zdog...lol I'm not even going to touch that until I get back up off the floor.

Improving the breed to me would mean to strive for perfection in Structure while at the same time increasing Drive or Workability. Breeding to increase the number of dogs with better structure and drive by dogs who have met the standard (titles), I would say that would be "bettering" the breed. After this type of breeding is done enough then maybe the standards could be taken up a notch. Seems pretty simple to me, but who the hell am I? Again this is all based solely on my opinion, no need to bash me for it. Thank you!

well when you get up, give me some answers, what is tested in ring that can't be in schutzhund? what makes it so much more real? and such a better test of dogs?

Uh ok. For 1 I would like to see how many Sch titled dogs could get past the courage test in PSA. 2 How many Sch dogs will engage in a fight whe the man has no sleave? I see the decoys of every other dog sport put a hell of a lot more pressure on the dog than in Sch. We use hidden sleaves and suits, dogs should be tought to target different areas, not just the arm.

Sadly PSA has lowered it's standards so more dogs could title. I dont agree with making anything easier. With progress in training techniques and so called better breeding, we should be making things harder in time, not easier.

yeah, so there are some dogs that will only bite a sleeve in shutzhund not all of them are great, that isn't a real new thing. Its not hard to get dogs with high prey drive to bite things, anywhere. It doesn't take long to get a dog trained in nothing but schutzhund to ( a good dog) to target other areas, in fact most if put under a real threat will bite anywhere. you'd like to think ring dogs are under " a hell of a lot more pressure", but maybe that's just at a high level, most training stuff I've seen has been nothing more than fun prey work, kind of the same as schutzhund. I don't see how ring is so much more real?? especially for testing a dog. Different scenrio's, it looks fun, but there aren't three phases, the OB in most ring is a joke, the handler plays very little role in the working relationship with the dog compared to schutzhund and their is no tracking? So how is ring a more "real" test of the dogs? And why do top Ring competitors move over to schutzhund for top level competitions? Not to take anything away from Ring sports, but when I hear this "real" and real dogs all the time, I don['t see it. Maybe at the high levels, but then I'd take a high level ring dog or a high level schutzhund dog that i've seen work any day there isn't really much different between the two. the rest, well its a lot of people talking.

a good dog is a good dog PERIOD. it is capable of doing PSA, K9, schutzhund etc.. saying lets see a schutzhund dog take a bite w/ no sleeve is like saying lets see a PSA dog do a 95 pt sch3 track. neither have been trained to do the other sport. its really a loaded question.

I'll take a stab at this.. I agree 100% the whole statement bettering the breed is a load of crap!!! """If you are breeding show dogs and you started w/ sg and v dogs, your dogs should be v and va. if you started w/ va dogs then they should be va1-3. if they are not what have you accomplished."""" Well for starters when dealing with genetics it is a crap shoot or educated guess at best. If it were that easy then all breeders would be on top after a few years of hard work. Breeding to VA dogs does not guarantee you anything! Breeding to the BSP winner again guarantees you nothing. The best producers are not always at the top of the show/work arena's and that has been proven over and over. So here is my question. How does a breeder go from starting to the top? And even harder how does he/she stay there? PEAKS AND VALLEYS..... Just like in training!! In my opinion it is just as hard as finding that top top sport dog to go all the way to the top with. Best Regards, Dennis