'Dog Whisperer' disciple denied Stokenchurch dog adoption - Page 2

My son recently tried to adopt a cat from a rescue group (he can't have a dog in his apartment).  The rescue group told him he had to adopt two cats because one cat would get lonely while he was at work.  The adoption price was $125 per cat!   Needless to say, he did not adopt from them. He is going to adopt from the humane society instead.

Rescues are like breeders, good bad and everything in between.  I was denied by the Staffordshire Bull Terrier rescue, yet I have fostered for a local GSD rescue and currently foster puppies or young dogs for another local all-breed rescue.  Two of my three current dogs are rescue mixes (the third is my intact male GSD whom I breed).  My heart dog cost $120 and my current competition star in training was free through a private party rescue.  The rescues I foster for and have adopted from are reasonable and don't always impose blanket rules arbitrarily.  Breed fancy/breeding and rescue have never been mutually exclusive for me, nor most of the dog people I know.  I think most people in my SchH club have been involved in rescue or support it whenever possible, everyone on my flyball team actively fosters for rescue (and most of them also own and train purebred dogs).

Lol I just love the Cesar haters that frequent the forums.  The man can read dogs and has a skill that most will never come close too.  I assume most on here have been around dogs long enough to tell if they are happy / stressed etc?  Look at his pack of 40+ dogs most with behavior issues, big, small, male / female the way they interact with him, and live with one another.  How many of you could pull that off? 
I think the reason he has a lot of haters is he proves that there is more then one way to address behavior issues, and they don't all involve a clicker and treats..lol. In fact I have yet to see a purely positive trainer ever deal with the cases he deals with and produce the results he does.When you reach Cesar's level and can live off the proceeds of your success through RESULTS, then Ill be interested to hear your opinion.
Or its the ones who dont take the disclaimer on the screen seriously and think all it takes is pssshhhtt and you fix your dog, he makes it look easy and it is for him.  Not for most people or trainers.

A Mexican illegal doesn't just randomly end up on TV folks, he got there because he can produce what many people on the internet and even in the professional dog world can only dream of, RESULTS!!!

As for force based methods, I have seen way more force at the local club then he ever uses.  If you actually watch with an open mind you can see that the actual force of his corrections are almost nagging...if anyone else preformed the same correction with the same force it probably would have no effect.  He brings a lil something extra that the dogs pick up on.

Anyways of course the purely positive rescue and AR crowd hate him, his continued success devalues most of their theories and assertions.  I dont take them seriously and most people that are serious about training and competing ignore them too.

Haz, I think you have hit it on the head concerning Cesar.  I have more than 120  videos of his methods, and each videos usually has three issues so I have about 360 different situations and I have yet to see him use excessive force or kick a dog.   One who says this is just not telling the truth-my opinion.  To say something like that, well they just don't get the picture.  ecs 

@!Haz & @e c street  I only think one person bashed Cesar specifically on this thread.  I personally think he is a good self taught "instinctual animal behaviorist", just like the old "horse whispers" that still exist today.  BUT, I think he is totally out of his element when it comes to training dogs, this guy is no Ivan Balabanov or even a Bill Koehler for that matter.  I think he did a disservice to his brand by labeling himself as the "be all end all" to dog ethology and the way he markets his current "training facility".  In retrospect as his stardom declined, I think he could have brought himself a lot more credibility towards the end of his series by partnering or at least providing "lip service" to scientists, behaviorist and famous dog trainers.  However, he chose to display hubris to his detractors, which to me shows his lack of any formal education.  He certainly didn't need formal education to get where he is, but I do think if he had some, he could have made some better decisions about how to proceed in the midst of controversy around his brand.  Honestly a BA/BS in animal ethology or zoology at this point would do this guy a world of good in regard to his long term prospects as a leading voice in dog world at large.  Albeit not for him to say to everyone "I have a bachelors degree", but so he fully understand whats going on when a scientist/behaviorist takes a stance against him.  Bill Koehler, when he was working for Disney, for example didn't have to deal with the kind of "scientific detractors" Cesar has to deal with today.

But back to the topic, Rescues are very clearly siding against people like Cesar, who in retrospect at this point desperately need someone in the scientific/behaviorist community to step forward and explain why "cookie training" is not enough, nor a universally effective application in dog training.

Yes but this thread is about people that bash the guy and wont adopt out some homeless mutt to a lady that subscribes to his methods.  As to his decline the guy was on TV for like 10 years...is still on Nat Geo wild.  He does not need some egg head to help him.  The only people that are interested in the science behind what he does or anyone does are people that train as a hobby or for a living, joe public just want fluffy to behave.  Read his books they can give you more insight into how he does what he does, and yes I think 50% of it is completely unique to him..as in cant be imitated or duplicated.
IMO comparing him to Sport Trainers is apples and oranges, they couldnt do what he does and he cant do what they do.  Behaviorist and trainer are different fields despite the overlap.

@Haz  Decline includes ratings and how much money he brings in to advertisers, he's been in decline from that perspective for at least the last 5 years.  As for the "egg head" comment, I think your comment is prefect representation of what I was getting at above.  These are not apples and oranges, they are EXACTLY the same thing achieved with different methodology, much of which is applicable to scientific observation and testing.  My point was since Cesar is in decline with the people who pay his bills, the "advertisers" and "TV networks", he's going to have to eventually evolve, IF, he wants to keep generating that easy high income for the remainder of his life.  The market is changing and he WILL NEED to appeal to the current 35 and under crowd at some point and in some clear way to "advertisers" and "TV networks", IF, he wants to keep raking in money, otherwise he's on the "John & Kate+8" financial path. 

The mere fact that you would categorize "egg heads", "pro trainers" and "instinctual animal behaviorist" like Cesar as being in "unrelated fields" shows a high degree of ignorance on your part.  I would cite Auburn Universities Vapor Wake training and breeding program as the perfect example of ACHIEVABLE synergy and cooperation of the fore mentioned groups, showing measurable RESULTS between the three fields COOPERATING and SHARING KNOWLEDGE.  This is the direction dog training should be headed and is heading for the most part, whether you believe it or nor.  Lackland AFB breeding and training program being another example of "egg heads", "pro trainers" and "instinctual animal behaviorist" working together to produce something beneficial in the dog world, within a scientifically measurable program.

PLEASE, open a "egg head" co-authored/edited book or some peer reviewed journal articles and possibly even enroll in a lower division ethology class, so you can then realize after brief intro that you might actually be DEAD wrong.  Attend a seminar by Ivan or Bart and ask them about what Cesar is doing from an "operant conditioning" perspective and they will EASILY be able to explain it to you in laymen scientific terms and not only that, they will be able to REPLICATE it.  Then flip it around, if you get the chance, and ask Cesar to explain what Bart and Ivan are doing from a scientific perspective and he will simply be dumbfounded.  A little formal education or collaboration with "egg heads" can only do good for Cesar at this point.

FYI, I have read his first two books, nothing in there I can't show you in a prior peer reviewed journal article.  In fact, his lack of citations in his books borders on plagiarism.

Nonsense, you are comparing pro sport trainers that specialize in working with high drive dogs (mals and shepherds) to achieve points within a "game" system to Milan who deals with numerous breeds, motivations, drive states, genetics and problem behaviors.  Their goals are different, their methods are different, their mindset is different. 

Ill say it again, both parties are expert in their individual fields, that does not equate to expertise as a behaviorist or sport trainer. 

Here is why I use the term egg head, imo you cannot go to school and become a dog trainer or behaviorist.  You actually have to get out there train and see different dogs.  If it was as simple as going to school the world would be full of great dog trainers with degrees...which its not.  What do Bellon and Milan have in common? They became successful through their work which was derived by trial and error in the field not derived from a College classroom. 

Theory is important dont get me wrong but dogs like humans are individuals, theory can give you a general idea what should work but often when you encounter the actual animal and those pretty theories dont quite work, when there are intangibles that weren't covered by your peer reviewed journals, thats where most of the egg heads fall flat and why we watch vids of Milan and Bellon, not professor x.  Theory only takes you so far, its the timing, presence, instinct and experience that makes you a great trainer or behaviorist.

Milan has made millions, he has been on TV for over a decade, cant think of many other shows with that longevity.  Of course there has been decline, no TV show lasts long the TV watching public is fickle.  He keeps it simple and easy to understand for the average Joe, he achieves quick results using simple methods that are easy for the public to follow. 

Most people watching a pro sport trainer are lost in a few seconds. 

In his books he uses some basic psychology but he generally focuses on his mindset when approaching his cases.  His books are not really how to guides but an overview of why he does what he does..

Anyways what Cesar does works despite many of these supposed EDUCATED behaviorists telling us all that what he does is cruel and does not work. he achieves consistent results, which is why he is hated.


 

There is nothing Millan has done that I haven't seen from other trainers; aside from claiming his methodologies are unique, and indulging in excessive anthropomorphism. I wouldn't sell a dog to a client that came with a current dog if she started alpha rolling it and slapping its legs.

Now, indulge me an egghead moment, but the "alpha roll" was first publicized in the Monks of New Skete's book, "How to be your Dog's Best Friend" back in the 70s. They have since then retracted said method. In the study of dogs, the alpha roll is initiated by the subordinate animal as a "cease fire" maneuver. When dogs are forcibly pinned on their backs, they may surrender OR they may resume their aggressive behavior with renewed vigor. A 2009 study be a Veterinary College in the UK drew a correlation between increased "alpha rolling" and increased aggressive behaviors. This study has been duplicated by other organizations. Millan takes a little of this, a little of that, and then tries to sell it as unique. He may have an aptitude for working with aggressive dogs, or he may simply have an effective sales pitch. It really doesn't matter to me. He's not doing anything that Bill Koehler and the Monks of New Skete haven't discused ad nauseum. I wouldn't want to see a client who thought rolling her own dog around was necessary for it to maintain good behavior; mainly because I don't want some reckless idiot to be manhandling one of my progeny without due cause. 

The key words here are "due cause." I'm not afraid to use force in training, if necessary; however, if I were a pet owner, and I had a dog that was so out of control I needed to be forceful with it, I would focus on establishing a better rapport (and better control) over my dog before I even contemplated adding an additional dog to the pack dynamic. 


[edit] I might add I value books with biographies/sources used. Whether I agree with the source material or not, it gives me the option of learning more about specific areas, or the studies used to glean the results. Even if someone uses their own studies, they can cite these as sources. Temple Grandin's book "Animals in Translation" is an excellent example, resplendent with sources used. Perhaps this might be egghead snobbery? Guilty as charged. I am one of those college-educated egghead types who likes to have the option of learning where the author is pulling their data from. I make no apologies for my "eggheadery."