15 month WL female - critiques please - Page 2

@ shoulder - smoulder..

Choosing a dog for where all those lines intersect or dissect or trans-sect could have something to do with why what's between the ears has been neglected in the breed.
That looks like a nice female, regardless of all the colored lines all over her front. JMO

Thanks Ibrahim! I think you are right about her shoulders. I kept picking her front up to set down naturally, and this is where she wound up. This helps me to understand why. I knew her shoulder was a bit straight, but you always help break things down to understand easier. I always appreciate that :-)

Prager - she's just now being started in bitework, so she reminds me of a typical young pup just starting out. Her grips are good and she loves to tug. She's also got nerves of steel and is extremely confident. She's been previously started on herding and she is over the top on livestock. I wish she hadn't been so delayed in her training, but we will see how far she can go!

Thanks Blitzen for sharing, I can see and imagine what you're saying, I like to learn those tricks 

I agree with Nans, Joanro and Blitzen about her being nice looking, indeed very good looking. There isn't yet a perfect conformed GSD, at least not from those I have seen in person so far. I get enthusiastic when I see a good looking working line GSD, it is always good to know the strength and weakness of a dog's build. From what Ramage describes her character, she's a blessing to own.

Ibrahim

 

Ramage , she is a nice looking dog. It is good to know about the dog as much as possible. But first think is always work . The beauty of a shepherd is derived from it's ability to work. Can she run fgast, cut sharp turns and change directions, does she have ability to accelerate on dime and stop on dime, can she jump high and far and does she has endurance. Is her gait light and efficient. Is her upper and lower jaw strong enough to bite hard and hold on. 
If you can say yes, she can do it with the best, then she has good structure. 
That's how I see it. 
Prager Hans

"Can she run fgast, cut sharp turns and change directions, does she have ability to accelerate on dime and stop on dime, can she jump high and far and does she has endurance. Is her gait light and efficient. Is her upper and lower jaw strong enough to bite hard and hold on.
If you can say yes, she can do it with the best, then she has good structure.
That's how I see it."

Hans, agreed.  But the structure that permits those abilities can be broken down into descriptive terms and illustrations and diagrams, so as to educate those who wish to understand the 'engineering' that is responsible for the dog being able to do these things.  Like all living things, a dog with a less-than-perfect shoulder layback can probably compensate for that deviation and still perform as well as one with the ideal shoulder--but it takes more effort for the first dog to accomplish it, and more conditioning, or results in greater degenerative change.  The person who can recognize a correct structure while the dog is at rest has an advantage over one who can only see it if the dog is engaged in all those activities--because sometimes you just don't get the opportunity to see the latter. 

So when someone like Ibrahim takes the time and trouble to diagram the 'ideal' structure from an engineering and function point of view, it doesn't deserve to be scoffed at or belittled--and it doesn't negate putting emphasis on 'what's between the ears', either, joanro. The goal is to value the entire package, not just a single aspect.  A dog that's smart and of strong character that is so cowhocked, straight-shouldered and lacking in rear angulation, and stands east-west in front is just as ineffective in the work as one that is perfectly built but lacks in temperament and intelligence.

Hexe, best post I've read in a long time, I envy your ability to compose meaningful thoughts into simple words, thanks for being with us and sharing your thoughts with us.
Also thank you Prager and thank you Joanro for your valuable contributions, I believe in room for disagreement as long as we play fair as Hexe does 

Ibrahim

Oh, and WRT to the original intent of this thread-- Ramage, she is a lovely specimen of a working line GSD, feminine yet strong in overall appearance, keen expression; the overstretched hind leg exaggerates the shoulder layback as it is forcing her to place more of her weight on her forehand for balance while holding that stance, but her shoulder is also fairly typical of the working lines.  While she is slightly long in the loin,  I view that as more acceptable in a bitch than a dog, as it assures ample room for carrying a litter of pups if she is to be used for breeding in the future. 

As for her stage in the training, at just 15 months, I'd hardly consider there to be much of a delay--were she 3 yrs old and just at this point, yeah, there'd been a delay. For 15 months, she's had some time to mature physically as well as mentally, and you're not faced with trying to undo something that was unintentionally done during an imprinting period--that can be a huge advantage in the long run. She seems quite promising from her appearance and your description of her progress since you've begun working with her.

Ibrahim, always a gentleman; your kind words are greatly appreciated.

never mind

 I view that as more acceptable in a bitch than a dog, as it assures ample room for carrying a litter of pups if she is to be used for breeding in the future. 

I never thought of that, good to know, a clever note indeed. Also Blitzen made a note about slightly long loin being good for flexibility when taking sharp turns, or something of the like, in another thread.

Ibrahim

Thank you Hexe and you are right! It is not a bad thing to start at 15 months. Sometimes, I get blinded by silly things and appreciate it when someone can show me the good side LOL I will say that it pleases me how easily she is to get OB on as she is more matured and has better focus than a young pup. This is definitely an advantage and I hope to progress rapidly towards her BH. 

Also, I definitely value Ibrahim's time and dedication on his posts. He's always the guy I look to for helping me understand the strengths and weaknesses. There are many times I think I see everything, but his posts show me something that I overlooked. 

Prager, I 100% agree with you on working being most important. A pretty dog who cannot work is not at all pretty to me. The working ability is, and always will be, my first priority. Of course, I do admit to some vanity in the looks department and really enjoy a nicely put together dog 

I truly do thank everyone for contributing to this thread.