Cloning... - Page 2

You can clone a dog but that won't mean the dog will be the same. First, yes the genetics will be the same. With a repeat breeding of the same dam and sire the genetics are the same. Yet, each pup in that litter will have different experiences from each other based on environment and nurture. The same will be said of each litter produced by the same genetic material. So, this brings us back to genetics (nature) vs Nurture. Nurture being environment, training, and life experiences. Look at human identical twins seperated at birth. Studies of this have existed for years. Some are exactly alike in just about everyway, others were so totally different with many similarities. When environments and life experiences were studied in depth, those variables contributed to the differences. Genetics are there, then the other variables influence the outcome. For my breeding program I want to add to it, improve it (there is always room for improvement). Yes, I want to carry over a lot of what I already have, plus increase a few things, maybe decrease a thing or two. That is why it is so important to know what you have HONESTLY, and find what mixes well with what you have. Cookie cutouts aren't always the best, but for someone starting out, it is a safer "breeding" ground. I am not breeding for pet quality, I want more than pets.

ok and in being honest of a litter of 7 pups how many of them will typically from Your breedings be High Drive Sch prospects ?? How many will be medium drive, good for obedience competition, ok for Sch, but better suited for some other type of utility ?? How many will be Low drive good for Pet Homes ?? Also in being Honest... You said, I am not breeding for pet quality, I want more than pets. But how many of the people who call on your pups are truly to ready to take on a HIGH drive pup ?? Again being honest, How many of those calls simply want a pet ? I am with you just simply asking the questions. I too strive for the more than pets, However I am realistic and know that a certain percentage will not have the drive for SchH or other utility's requiring high drives.

Deeswolf, I think cloning and repeat breeding are not really the same. Cloning is scientifically the exact same genetic reproduction. You might have different genetic traits show up in a repeat breeding that are very much different! You can have a litter with perfect temperments and then repeat the breeding and get some pups with a variety of temperments. Genetically all they share (this is only my theory, I am not a genitic expert here!) are the same parentage. Their genetic make up can be very different. Just like I have a brother who is an @$$hole but a successful business man at the age of 25. I am 36 and not so uptight about business dealings. I don't see the need to be as this produces unnecessary stress on me. My brother is wound tight and lives a stressful life. We have the same parentage but are geared and motivated very differently! Thus, even though they may have been made using the same genetic material, their genetic make up is unique for each individual, unless of course you are an identical twin...... Vickie

Dang it all, I responded to Echo's questions last night, and I guess I was too long winded as it didn't post. When I get back from work, I will try to remember what I posted and repost it. Just wanted you to know I didn't blow off your inquiry.

A sire and a dam each contribute one half of their gene pool to each offspring, but the gene pool is never identical in any of the puppies. That's why littermates do not produce identical progeny unless there are indentical twins whelped in the same litter and that is quite rare. Some puppies will favor the sire in phenotype, some the dam and a few may even look exactly the same as a sibling. However, no 2 gene banks are ever the same even in littermates. Inbreeding, linebreeding, outcrossing then enters into the equation as the attempt to "set" a specific characteristic/charactieristics in your line. Genes determine traits. Genes are inherited in pairs, one half of each pair coming from each parent. Dogs have many more genes that do humans, I forget the exact number now. Assuming all genes will pair up in exactly the same order in 2 dogs, even litter mates, is not good science. Cloning is the only way to have 2 dogs that are identical both in phenotype and genotype.

Retaining specific characteristics such as drive is not only dependent on the genes themself, expression is a big factor and that is influenced by modifier genes. Also environment is a big factor and a dog with the highest level of drive genetically may not reach its full potential if not stimulated correctly. We expect so much from a dog, but often fail to recognize out own shortcomings where training and puppy imprinting is concerned. In a breed where so many think they are master dog trainers, it may be an ego thing so some will never admit they failed the dog and say the dog failed them. Some may just assume the dog is weak nerved, good for nothing. All the while the potential may be there, but the dog is mishandled according to it's own specific needs. We like to laugh at Caeser the dog guy, but he has a gift many of us lack, he understands dogs, knows how to communciate with them, and speaks their language. Don't belittle him for his ways, there is always something to be learned even from a dog whisperer. It might be better to check the testosterone at the door and observe other training methods. Anyone can flank a dog or active an e-collar; getting into a dog's head takes a different sort of talent. No dog will ever reach it's full potential without correct handling. I often wonder if more often than not "weak" GSD's are the result of mishandling and not poor breeding. It's all speculation, we will never know for sure. If a dog inherits the gene(s) for correct drive and IF the expression of that gene depends on modifiers, that dog may not itself be a high-drive dog, but it COULD pass that trait to some of its progeny. I'm sure many could site examples of low drive dogs that have produced high drive ones, dogs with mild HD that have produced progeny with good hips, dogs with poor fronts, that have produced progeny with good fronts, etc.. In theory one could breed 2 low drive dysplastic GSD's and if the planets line up just right at the time of conception, that union could produce a dog with perfect hips and high drive. Of course the best scenario is to start with the best in all areas of concern and hope that their genes mesh well.

Blitzen, Good post! I really like to read your posts because you offer a great wealth of knowledge to learn from. Vickie

Thanks, Vickie. I've been very lucky in my 40 years in dogs. I've had some wonderful mentors, owned some great dogs, and have had the opportunity to work as a vet tech. Also, I've always been a very nosey person and a dog nerd since I was a child LOL.

Blitzen, HaHa, we sound alot alike! Not so many mentors though, have had to learn the hard way, on my own. I have had some wonderful dogs too, I always thought if I could clone just one dog it would be Falk (my Fero son) but now my views have changed. Cloning him would be for my own selfish reasons anyway. I was a vet tech for many years. Quit about a year ago so that I could concentrate more on my dogs. I have found out that routine health care can be pretty expensive when you are not a vet tech and no longer receive all the "freebie" stuff from the drug reps and next to nothing medical care for your kiddo's. I like to be nosey too, you can learn by being that way. My secondary hobby is researching pedigrees, my hubby dosen't understand why I am always looking at what he thinks is the same pedigree all the time! Vickie

It is well know that the experience with cloning, thus far, in livestock has produced many unforseen and not well understood variables. Early arthritis, short lifespan, and others, in sheep and cattle. For dogs, it is rumored that cloning has taken place (in the orient) but no definitive proof has yet been made available. However, cats have been cloned and it has been a surprising find that when bi-coloured cats and tri-coloured cats are cloned, the coat colour does not reproduce exactly. The patches may show up quite differently in the offsping. This shows that some traits, although present genetically, may express differently in different offsping. We are a loonnnggg way off from successfully cloning dogs, especially in terms of identifying the potential variables and the potential fatal flaws in the cloned offsprings.