Vitamin C Prevents Hip Dysplasia - Page 2

Good DesertRangers, the correct breeding is the way to a health bloodline. Breeding with serious objectives will help the breed, the medicine can help but is just a paliative to a weak genetic animal who is fighting againt its onw genes.

I haven't read the links listed here, but can tell you that Belfield came up with this idea over 30 years ago. These may be old articles. Magadosing of Vit C, palpatating puppies and xraying using a fulcrum all aired around the same time and were touted by Belfield and Bardens as being the ultimate weapons in the battle against HD. As it turned out, none of them ever really panned out as hoped and were abandoned by the vet community. Now Penn Hip uses palpatation and fulcrums/wedges for hip evaulation, maybe a similar technique to Bardens? They also said that if you confined a puppy to a small cage for the first 5, 6 months of it's life so it had to always be seated with its hind legs in abduction where the heads remained seated in the sockets, that those dogs would never develope HD. They also tried the use of spreader casts, the same as are used on infants with HD. Assuming that any of this does work, so what? It only prevents HD from developing and doesn't change the genetic make up of the dog or identify the genes or the carriers. It all felt like voodoo science to me.

Hey people HD is not only determined or predetermined by genetic fault and like at elbow dysplasia, there is no only one factor considered responsible for the development of HD. Considerable evidence suggests a polygenic basis for inheritance of HD with certain risk factors playing a substantial role in degree of expression. These risk factors include size, muscle mass, growth rate, trauma and inflammatory process cased by high drive and heavy playing in growing phase, overnutrition, electrolyte imbalance, and hormonal influences during gestation. Clinical evidence suggests a strong correlation between muscle laxity and development of HD independent of environmental factors. And we must for dogs betterment have an eye on both - correct genetically breeding and controlling environment factors. We could not switch off our interaction in controlling and reforming environment. I think that is obligation for all breeders. If you can help to stop inflammatory process and hip degeneration caused by that process why is badly taking vit C or controlling environment? Yes, and that logic method come up over 30 years ago and who care.

If one wants to really know which dogs truly have the best hips, wouldn't it be better to allow puppies to be challenged with situations that are thought to exacerbate the condition rather attempting to prevent them from engaging in such activites? Keeping a dog confined, feeding them megadoses of Vitamins thought to impare inflamation, keeping them thin, not allowing them to participate in certain exercises and play sessions, etc may get you a dog with hips good enough to breed per SV and OFA standards, but that might not mean that dog is a good breeding risk. What is the goal - to breed dogs that will get hip certifications or to identify dogs with the best hip conformation for breeding stock? Somehow all the megadosing and environmental control seems to me like smoke and mirrors. I don't believe in controlling the environment where puppies are raise beyond what is reasonable for the dog's age. I would not keep a litter on a slippery surface or overfeed it nor would I condemn that litter to a life of no play or rowdy exercise in the hopes that they will develope better hip conformation. Let nature take its course. We have already screwed up dogs enough.

amir wrote: "If you can help to stop inflammatory process and hip degeneration caused by that process why is badly taking vit C or controlling environment?" Reread the posts, my friend. NO ONE said that giving Vitamin C supplementation was BAD. What is being vehemently disputed is Psygod's erroneous statement that "Vitamin C Prevents Hip Dysplasia". It doesn't. It's been studied to death, and the fact is that vitamin C supplementation does NOT prevent HD. Neither do chondroprotectives such as glucosamine and chondroitin, nor SAM-e, or colloidial silver, or specific feeds, supplements, talismans or rituals. All *may* offer some help in keeping the cartiledge, and the dog itself, in good condition, but NONE of them PREVENT HD. amir also wrote: "Yes, and that logic method come up over 30 years ago and who care." Many people care about the age of a theory or claim--after 30-plus years, there's bound to have been some scientifically-based study done on a hypothesis, so before one comes promoting something based on an old theory, they are obligated to first give due diligence to checking into the research that was done in an attempt to validate or negate such claims. If the Vitamin C angle had panned out, the studies would bear it out and could be easily located. It didn't hold up to structured, scientific method of investigation, and that's why the only literature that can be found promoting it is the same tired old references (which were never based on scientific methods) from 30-plus years ago.

Blitzen, I agree with you. I do not jump pups over high jumps, meaning other than they would do naturally, nor do I trot them with the ATV as I do my older dogs to help keep them in shape. But they are absolutely out and about, running around, tumbling, jumping and doing everything they should and would do as a pup given its natural tendencies. As you know, I personally do NOT believe in supplementation of any kind, unless there is a clear and demonstrated reason and a scientific and beneficial outcome to be had. Again, much of the literature, even on such supplementation for humans is simply bunk. In a healthy person or animal, there should be no inflammtory process going on. In a properly fed and watered person or animal, there is no dietary or electrolyte imbalance. Dogs rarely become dysplastic in the true sense of the word as it means when we think about it as a congenital defect. But yes, dogs do sometimes have degenerative processes that can be caused by environmental influences, as well as injury, and probably, if the truth be known, in most cases, some genetic predisposition. You are correct about the smoke and mirror aspect! A given dog should probably also not be bred if it develops inflammatory or degenerative changes that are severe and not clearly related to injury. But keeping any animal in a "protective bubble" serves no purpose unless to keep it as a museum specimen.

I will not stop with my talismans or rituals as you said, until that magic formula producing HD free healthy and happy puppies. When I start that method in some lines before app 15 years I do not believe like you but I decide to try. And my dogs are all in that talisman continued blood line in all generations HD free. For me that is good reason to stay member in C vitamins sect.

Hexe, As always, thank you for your clear and knowledgeable posts regarding fact, and debunking fiction. Amir, again, perhaps you do not understand what is being said here because English clearly is not your first language. You can continue giving Vitamin C or anything else you want. But that is NOT why you supposedly have HS free dogs. I won't even bother to ask who deems the hips free of HD.

Hodie; Why do you feel you have to insult someones heritage?Clearly your post seems to be somewhat bias!

Peg, To suggest that perhaps someone whose native language is not English and therefore he may not completely understand what has been posted here or elsewhere is certainly not insulting someone's heritage. As for bias, yes, I do (as do others) have a bias against unnecessary supplements, but given that, it is anyone's choice to do as they please. Helping Amir and others really understand what is and is not helpful is the goal of many, not just coming in with some post to try to stir up trouble as some do.