Use of e-collar as a training tool - Page 2

Slamdunc addressed it best but i HAVE ONE  point to add....NOT all GSD or working dogs are able to withstand E collars...It is advisable to get a well reputable Trainer of Working dogs to evaluate your gsd or dog before using an E Collar..It is not for all dogs,...I would say it is like horse training...it is for the Best of the Best spirited Dogs with strong nerves and good temperaments and in need of that little bit of correction for something not learned any other way.....I have seen ANXIOUS people or trainers who want to PUSH in a hurry a dog for a title and use the E collar not appropriately  IMO.

Nangsd can attest to that also..

Good luck and hope you have some good on the ground advice...LOL

YR

Couple of comments on the posts above
1- Debate on E collars is futile- why? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are wrong and it certainly doesn't mean they have no right to an opinion.
2 - Be wary of anyone condemning use of such devices - why - again are we not allowed an opinion and just because it contracts yours that doesn't make it wrong.
3- If your dog starts to lag and it has 'appently' demonstrated that it 'knows' the exercise I would suggest that the exercise hasn't been either proofed, generalised or it lacks motivation. All of which are faults of the trainer not the dog. So YOU as a trainer are found wanting and so you zap the poor dog - for your failings. My advice for what its worth - motivate your dog - be a bit more interesting and perhaps you'll get its full attention and as a result a better performance.
4- Bart Bellon uses them - So what!!? If I put on the same type of running shoes as Usain Bolt that makes me perform as him does it? No - complete rubbish and what a way to recommend such a device - just because someone they don't know - have never met - trains completely differently from them - use one it must be right for anyone - the mind boggles.

My advice for what its worth - full on motivational training with no such equipment - that way you'll have an enthusiastic and eager to please dog. Yep they may make mistakes - but hey who doesn't - and if you made a mistake and I stuck one of these on you - bet you'd squeal like a pig.

Happy training

 

The problem with the E-collar Good Vs E-collar Bad debate is that a) the 2 sides aren't going to agree, and b) it hijacks the legit question about that started the thread.

It's understood that many people think the collars are bad. But even the "e-collars are good" crowd admit there are proper and improper ways of using the e-collar.  And it's unfortunate that hijacking the thread means that a person improperly using an e-collar will continue to do so.

I know a couple of people with a dog that's deaf.  For some odd reason, he doesn't respond to clicker training but does respond to the e-collar.

Sorry Jeffs I don't see where the thread was been hijacked - I merely replied to comments that had already been made by others on the same thread. The fact that it has been diverted a tad surely is how the thread has evolved. If yuou wish to invoke stricy perameters on how far a thread can evolve then fine - but hijack..... I don't see it sorry

I did not intend to imply that "Debate on E collars is futile."   There are plenty of threads on that debate and I had no interest to create yet another thread for the debate. 

I was looking for multiple views and solutions on some specific concerns/ down falls I was seeing with the use of an e-collar.  I got everything I needed for my answer, including how to prevent the down falls I was seeing.  Thank you all that provided this.

I have not made a final decision to use the e-collar, as I am working through the issue by taking a step back on this training issue and starting with some smaller steps.  We will see.  I am not closing out all of my options, including the e-collar if I need to.  I am finding that Max does have a stubborn streak; we just have to work through them.

 

Fawn,
I doubt your dog needs an E collar,  I would caution you against using one until you have the help of an experienced trainer.  "Stubborn dogs" do not need an E collar, just a different type of motivation.

Gazzer,
Welcome to the forum.  I will address the points you bring up in your first post:

Couple of comments on the posts above
1- Debate on E collars is futile- why? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are wrong and it certainly doesn't mean they have no right to an opinion.

People can certainly disagree with me, my experience, my advice and my opinions.  That is what a discussion is all about on a forum.  The exchange of ideas is wonderful, the seeking of knowledge is outstanding.  The problem becomes when people sitting behind a key board begin giving training advice that have never trained a dog.  Often times on this forum the advice given can be potentially harmful and dangerous.  A novice to dog training will not recognize potentially disastrous advice and may follow it blindly.  I have been on this forum for a little while now and have seen the "Ecollar debate" go on and on.  It is FUTILE, in my opinion to, attempt to have an intelligent discussion with those condemning the use of an E collar that have never used one, never trained a dog beyond "sit and down" but are self proclaimed experts.  It has been very difficult to try to provide accurate information on the correct use of any training device, let alone an E collar.  I have spent countless hours in the past discussing the appropriate use, conditioning and procedure for properly utilizing and E collar.  I have also spent a great deal of time trying to dispel the myths and misconceptions of using and E collar.  I am a motivational trainer and 99% of what I do is based on praise and reward, but I also proof my dogs and will have a means of correction always available if needed.  That correction device may be a flat collar and leash, nylon slip collar, prong collar, voice, or an E collar.  I believe in "Plan A and Plan B."  Plan A everything goes perfectly and the dog is rewarded.  Plan B is when Plan A does not work and I have a means to ensure correct performance instantly.  I do not work poodles, and dogs in a highly motivated state either excited or aggressive will sometimes need a correction.   


2 - Be wary of anyone condemning use of such devices - why - again are we not allowed an opinion and just because it contracts yours that doesn't make it wrong.

Nope, it doesn't make it wrong at all to have a different opinion than mine.  So long as it is based on actual experience, facts and proven.  Hearsay and what is learned in books or on the internet and regurgitated here does not cut it with me.  I prefer experience with working dogs and certainly respect those that do that.  In the past some of the most vocal opponents of E collars have been those that have never used one, lack experience with them and then condemn anyone that uses them. Or are just horrible trainers! 

3- If your dog starts to lag and it has 'appently' demonstrated that it 'knows' the exercise I would suggest that the exercise hasn't been either proofed, generalised or it lacks motivation. All of which are faults of the trainer not the dog. So YOU as a trainer are found wanting and so you zap the poor dog - for your failings. My advice for what its worth - motivate your dog - be a bit more interesting and perhaps you'll get its full attention and as a result a better performance.

This is a very correct statement and one that I totally agree with!

4- Bart Bellon uses them - So what!!? If I put on the same type of running shoes as Usain Bolt that makes me perform as him does it? No - complete rubbish and what a way to recommend such a device - just because someone they don't know - have never met - trains completely differently from them - use one it must be right for anyone - the mind boggles.

Actually, I do know Bart Bellon and have been to his seminars.  I have been to many seminars over the years with top working dog people and will continue to go.  I have been to Bird dog seminars, SchH / IPO and Police dog seminars with some of the top trainers in the world. 


My advice for what its worth - full on motivational training with no such equipment - that way you'll have an enthusiastic and eager to please dog. Yep they may make mistakes - but hey who doesn't - and if you made a mistake and I stuck one of these on you - bet you'd squeal like a pig.

I agree again that motivational training is the way to go, I never said it wasn't.  I can show you my dog, that is very happy, highly motivated, highly driven to work, loves working and is a fantastic working dog.  He wears an E collar at work every day!  Your statement about the "mistake and making me or the dog squeal like a pig", only shows again another person that does not understand the subtle use of a training device.  Your "squeal like a pig" statement is utterly rubbish and makes my point about the futile argument.  I'm happy to hear that you train motivationally and happier to hear that you do not use an E collar.   It is the finesse of the proper use of the tool and trainer that makes it effective, NEVER just making a dog "squeal."  That is exactly how NOT to use an E collar. 

I do also agree that the OP does not need to use an E collar for her dog. 

Best Regards.

Gazzer,
Please re read the rest of my original post.  To make it easier, I will repost it here for you:

The dog should respond to the command and not the correction device. Corrections are administered when the dog disobeys a command. No, a properly trained dog that is properly conditioned to the E collar will acknowledge that all corrections, verbal, leash, collar, prong or E collar come from the handler not the device. Again, properly trained in a motivational way the dog enjoys the commands and is eager to work. If the dog hesitates that has nothing to do with the leash, collar or E collar but with poor training, poor timing and improper motivation.

Jeffs,

The problem with the E-collar Good Vs E-collar Bad debate is that a) the 2 sides aren't going to agree, and b) it hijacks the legit question about that started the thread.

It's understood that many people think the collars are bad. But even the "e-collars are good" crowd admit there are proper and improper ways of using the e-collar. And it's unfortunate that hijacking the thread means that a person improperly using an e-collar will continue to do so.

There are improper ways to use any training device.  On other threads studies have been posted showing the damage done to dogs by the use of choke collars and prong collars.  More dogs are harmed each year by choke collars than any other training device.  There are people that improperly use their "HANDS" and hit or strike their dogs.  An inexperienced or untalented person can misuse anything. 

I know a couple of people with a dog that's deaf. For some odd reason, he doesn't respond to clicker training but does respond to the e-collar.

I would imagine since the dog is deaf it could not hear the clicker.  The vibrate feature on the E collar could be used as a positive marker in the same way as a clicker for a deaf dog.  I use the vibrate feature as a recall when the dog is searching out of sight and it is not practical or safe to use voice commands. 




 

Gazzer I was the one that brought up Bart Bellon and no one said use on because Bart does. What I said was for the OP to maybe attend one of his seminars. The best way to see the proper use of an E-collar is from someone who knows the proper use it. Isn't that what everyone always seems to say? Find a trainer that knows how to use one and learn from them? Then they can make an informed decision.