6 1/2 month shepherd pup with defense - Page 2

read your post again slamdunc;
thanks for all the advice; you realize this pup is almost o7 months and you are encouraging me to work on his prey; there is something that tells me it is inside of him somwhere
I understand what people may say about what to do; I have gotten a good share of opinions I do not agree with; a personal protection dog is a rare animal;
I had a yoschi grandson once; he was similar to this pup but his head was not put together well; he hated men for no reason; I think he would be an antisocial or phychotic if human; he ended up at a prison where he got a job.. but this pup is intelligent, has a very strong pack drive.
i'm looking forward more advice on the prey issue

Slam you mention about rules when the dog is to be approached by strangers;
I have never allowed my dog to be fed by strangers in the four months i've had him. When at petsmart if people want to pet him I hold him by the collar and he is tolerant, particulary children (i have three my own who play with the pup all the time), but he rather not be touched; if I stand next to you looking at say, different foods with the pup in between he acts like you don't exist; it's only when you decide to interact with him or purposefully try to take on his physical space that he will let you know it's not okay.  If you're a man don't lock eyes with him; he doesn't like it and will let you know; maybe this is inner fear, I am not sure..
 

MaxII: "...and eventually taught to play with the sleeve and the decoy,..."
Stop thinking like a " prey drive dog owner"; during training developing the strong points of a dog is much easier than working against its nature - in this case I´d develop the defense.
Everything else needs time.

Just a quick note..holding his collar leaves him pretty well cornered, and if you're tense about his interactions with people, you are inadvertently exacerbating this behavior. You said he's fine with kids, which is great, I'm just pointing out a general rule of thumb about what happens when you "choke up" on how you're holding a dog. 

Susie,
thank you for your post; the examples are encouraging

I hold him when it is a kid approaching because he is strong.. I know he will not hurt a child, and I have the kid approach from the front; in their height, they are almost eye level with the dog, face to face if you will; he actually wags his tail sometimes with some kinds; I don't think I've had an adult pet him yet; they usually give up after initial attempt..

Maxll,
I was referring to my dogs "rules" when dealing with people.  I corrected my post above as it was unclear.  My dog will not tolerate a stranger grabbing his head, petting his head or touching his collar.  Those are his "rules" on how he will tolerate people around him.  This dog is not the kind of dog that you bring to the family picnic and I do not allow children or citizens to pet him.   He is great in the house and great with team guys and ok with other Officers when working.  He is a solid dog that has little tolerance for people that mistakenly believe that all Police K-9's are like "Lassie."  
 
I believe if you want to work this dog in obedience or compete then you need to develop his ball drive.  It is not absolutely necessary but it sure makes training more fun for both of you.  Regardless, you need to find a way of motivating the dog whether it is praise, food or a ball or tug.  

I had a Yoschy granddaughter that was an outstanding dog, phenomenal working dog too.  

You need to adjust how you handle this dog around people, holding the collar can lead to issues.  I would be very careful with that just to be on the safe side.  

Often times a slight underlying insecurity causes the dog to view people with suspicion, combine this with the ability to go forward with aggression and you have a "sharp" dog.  Sharp as in quick to react aggressively, it has a different meaning when applied to dogs just as "civil" does.  A sharp dog can make an excellent PP dog or even a very good Police K-9.  If it was a severe insecurity then the dog would be a fear biter, which I do not think is the case with your dog.  

Working a dog like this can be challenging in the bite work.  I would probably hold off on bite work until the dog matures a little more unless you have a very skilled helper.  I would work on developing his ball drive, but be patient it takes time and can be done.  A dog that is already showing this much aggression and defense at a young age is a dog I'd wait till the dog was older and more mature before I pushed him in defense to train him.  

JMO FWIW

 

Everything depends on your personal goal with this dog -
are you looking for a family member fine with everybody first and foremost or are you looking for a dog able to compete and/or protect ?
There are dogs not capable of both - you need to think about your goals.

Susie brings up a very good point that I also wanted to ask, what are your plans for this dog?  You mentioned sport and PP, what are you hoping to achieve?  That will make a big difference in how you proceed.

I agree with Slam very much so. But if you want top sport he WILL be a lot of work, if it is even possible. I would not do any bite work with him in defense until he is way more mature. I would work on prey drive, prey drive, prey drive.  Use very short sessions. At first when he notices, make a big deal with lots of praise, then put him up. ( I would put him in a kennel) Later do it again and again until you bring him out and he notices right away. Then take it just a little farther at a time and very short sessions. If you work him until he looses interest you are backing up.
You may not be able to recognize insecurity, but I would bet it is there, and that is not all bad. More often then not an absolute secure dog will not see threat in anything and thus will not be able to do real protection.
You need to find experienced help or I would bet you will not make it to your first trial.

I my opinion you have one of two opinions. 1 is, train train train in Sch and learn more then you know or 2, train this dog in personal/family protection and buy and additional dog that is suitable prospect for the sport. The latter would be a lot easier but you will not learn as much.

Have a great day

Paul