Schutzhund Training questions for the experts - Page 2

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=529

Go to the link above and listen to 1 hour and 20 minutes of FREE Michael Ellis video about his methods of training.  I use his methods because they work well and are very efficient and humane.  Michael Ellis has trained police, service, war, mondio ring, schutzhund and probably some other training styles.  Follow his training system and you will make fewer mistakes and you and your dog will enjoy training more.  I also like Ivan Balabanov ( Obedience without Conflict DVD ) who uses methods similar to Michael Ellis.  Both Michael Ellis and Ivan Balabanov use and improve on much of the work of Gottfried Dildei who used a system based primarily on food rewards.  The early steps up to 6 to 8 months in the Ellis system are based on food and toy rewards and do not use prong collars which annoy the dog at best and cause pain at worst.  Both Ivan Balabanov and Michael Ellis have a system of clear communication with the dog without needless force.  Electric collars also have no place in training a young dog or in the hands of an inexperienced trainer.  Most clubs are built around a local training guru or kennel owner and vary widely in training methods and quality of instruction.  For the most part the club gurus surround themselves with "yes" men and women who follow their particular brand of training and train their type of dogs.  If you are going to follow any guru of training follow Michael Ellis and save you and your dogs a lot of time and effort.  Training is all about you and your dogs having clear two way communication and no club can teach either your dog or you about that in a few minutes a week.  Once you and your dog have faith and trust in each other and have established clear two way communication training is a breeze and fun for both of you. 

hey, watch those videos! enjoy the educational process which will include making a few mistakes. One mistake might be listening too close to a ''web guru''. When you visit a club[s] in your area you might meet a person who will mentor you right away or it might take a while to find that gem. Last time I took notice , it is impossible to train a dog without help. Thus we call that person a ''helper''. I believe many things bubba says but one booboo to avoid is to believe that there is no help out there or people will try to subvert your growth. Thankfully I have witnessed a community effort in the GSD world.

What you are going to find is that people with little talent and big egos are always willing to help in clubs.  Helper work is never free if it is any good .. you will pay one way or another.  Don't think that a club is going to train your dog for you or give you free QUALITY helper work in the amount you need when you get to the stage you need a helper.   You are going to train your dog primarily solo up until 6-10 months and that is when you NEED some helper work.  BAD helper work is worse than no helper work at all.  Educate yourself on the proper way to train by studying the methods of Michael Ellis and establish trust and faith in each other with your dog.  Then when a helper says put a prong collar on that 6 month old pup you will have the knowledge and education to tell them NO I won't do that as it is not needed yet to train, I have control and I know how to fix the problem.  When all of the club members say start working that puppy in protection at 6 months and the puppy does not have good obedience yet you will say "not yet" because you have a clear picture of where your training is going.  If you go to a club and listen to everyone there you will make many mistakes because many of them don't know what they are talking about.  The old club mentality of come every week and the training director will tell you what to work on next week is destructive because it assumes the training director knows what he/she is doing and actually knows your dog better than you do.

Bubba's above post is one of the best, most detailed ever on clubs. Like he said, know enough and stand up to any helper who insists on doing things with your dog that are not age appropriate. Don't pay in advance for any training or helper work, no matter how honest you thing they are; that's the most sure way of finding out too late that the person you're dealing with is dishonest.

bubbabooboo, You make it sound like there are zero clubs out there that don't want to see club members succeed. Sorry you've had so many bad experiences with clubs, but that's not everyone's story.

It has nothing to do with whether the club wants it's members to succeed if they don't know what they are talking about.  I have an autistic son now 20 years old who when he was 3 years old saw 20 pediatric neurologist and developmental specialist before we found one that had a clue.  Out of the over 20 board certified and medical school trained doctors he saw only one got the medications and diagnosis correct.  My son got better when we took control and starting telling doctors and educators NO!!  We won't do that because it is not what our son needs.  Michael Ellis is a trainer of dog trainers and the truth of what he teaches can be seen in his own dogs and the dogs of his students.  The weekend warriors at many clubs are a legend in their own mind and will tell you that their way is the only way when trainers like Michael Ellis have been there and done that, found a better way and moved on to another level of training competence three levels above the local club trainers.  Whether it be veterinarians telling you that raw dog food will kill your dog or the camouflage wearing training director at a club you have to know the truth and say no or walk away if no is not the answer they want to hear.  You are your dog's partner, protector, teacher, leader and the ultimate authority as to what your dog does during training and has done to him by others. 

Bubba, another excellent post.
It's amazing how many people will cling to denial that some training 'experts' don't have the skill to work with just any dog. If the dog won't conform to the limited 'expertise' or techniques of some 'trainers', that person will go through how ever many dogs it takes to finally get one theIr trainer *can* train. Same way some people go through dozens of horses before they find the one they can ride. If you can ride, you can ride. If you can train, you can train.

Prodigy, there are many things you can do at home, things you should do. I hope you have some experience with dogs, with 2 same age pups you gonna have your hands full. Potty training, crate training, exposure to different environments and socialization will take your time up quickly. If you want to show in SV style show ring, I recommend finding a club or group of people that can teach you in ring training. Those clubs are mostly associated with the German Shepherd Dog Club of America- Working Dog Association (GSDCA-WDA) and have often the short cut OG (for Ortsgruppe) in front of their club name. Those clubs also train their dogs in Schutzhund, and some folks send their dogs away for training and titling. You probably could find some good directions there if you consider this. And you will receive guidance for what and how to train at home.
The Ellis videos are good, but dont provide immediate help when you work with your dog. Still, doesnt hurt to watch. There is usually an AKC club in every city where you can sign up for puppy classes, great for exposure to different things! There is plenty material out on the internet if you google. You can watch videos on youtube on imprinting. Until the pups are coming you should have a pretty good idea of whats good and not so good to do. Then work on the bonding, play ball, let them chase a rug, let them look for food on the ground. Teach them sit, down, stay, come, position, yet still make it playful and interesting with food; sessions short and happy. I bet at the end of the day you are worn out, and wonder why you got two pups at the same time

sorry not to comment right away but I just spent the entire morning and a lot of the afternoon with sport buddys, training and socializing. I now must go back now figure out which one is the piece of dung bububabobo met. I am so sorry this bubbabobo person never found a good sport training group. Or maybe booboo did and he is the piece of dung that can not fit in. There is an organized, educated, helpful GSD world and I say if you have not found it you either did not look around enough or do not deserve to keep their company. The videos are a great source for learning and this web site has its merits. I hope the more a malcontent complains the more the thread's author is motivated to go look deeper into sport training and some day get off of the WWW and onto a sunny sport field with dozens of sport friends.

gsdstudent, I couldn't agree more. The 3 clubs within an hour drive of me have all been friendly and helpful.

You can sit all day and watch videos and dvds and still go out and not apply the techniques properly. Telling someone to buy dvds and go solo for the first 10 months doesn't help anyone succeed, rather it will hold them back. There's nothing like taking a new members dog out and having to start from scratch to retrain because of a mistake that could have been prevented 8 months prior! It's very disappointing to some people to come out with an adult only to find out that 6 month old pups are doing 3 times more than their dogs. Those people hardly stick around for more than a few weeks no matter how much you try to help them.

There are some clique-ish groups out there, but none of the legit clubs out there are waiting to abuse the next dog that joins the club.