Spinners: any opinions - Page 2

Thanks also to Gustav and bubbabooboo.
 

i think the tendency to spin is genetic.  i also think it is one of those things that can skip several generation & then
show up again.  there are some other behaviors that act the same way.....you see it in the grandparents and don't
see it again for 3 or 4 generations.  i guess that is why "knowing" your lines is so critical.
pjp

Koach,

The thing is, if it is OCD, it doesn't mean the dog can't work. You just will get a better response and a happier dog if you understand the nature of this nervous issue. The one thing that would be telling and to guard against, is additional triggers. In my experience, these can always be added (and I think it can be managed, too!) but I have yet to see one "go away", once established. Bubba more or less has the right idea, too, except I disagree with the reason being "to burn off energy". I think that does happen, just it is not the reason for it.

Gustav, that was interesting because I agreed with Slamdunc, too, but I don't think I agreed with you! LOL 

I'm used to be alone in my thinking....lol

My female who spins is a daughter of Hessel from ODonnels who was a WUSV qualifier from the Netherlands and apparently a very intense dog.  Hessel liked to jump up and down in his kennel according to those who knew him while he was alive.  I have seen other high drive dogs also bounce up and down on their back legs in their kennels all day if excited, frustrated or trying to get human attention.  I have a hard time saying that jumping up and down is any better than spinning or barking or running the fence.  They all are symptoms of dogs who are bored, or frustrated, or trying to get attention and looking for a way to blow off energy.  Hessel produced some dogs known for being over the top in drives and I have two of his daughters and they are both crazy drive bitches.  Both of these dogs are just fine in the house but are very busy kennel dogs, one spins and one runs all day with something in her mouth if they are left in a kennel or even a large exercise pen.  If you put the spinner in a large exercise pen she stops spinning and runs all day but she will spin when I approach the fence as she wants attention.  I think the Hessel from ODonnels females are just like Hessel in that he was wound very tight.  If having too much drive is a fault it is one I can live with.  So far the Hessel grandpups have been great and I am happy to have Hessel's traits to combine with my other bloodlines.

Spinning in bitework more often than not IMO is "leaking drive"

I believe if stopped early as it begins you can prevent  it from becoming a bad habit.  Young dogs that are allowed to keep doing it, will be unfixable at a certain point/ certain age and may even start doing it in their guard, in front of the helper as they have learned that behavior as an outlet for their excess drive.

My young female started to spin.  I wanted to squash it right away if I could....so I did not give her the leash length while being agitated and held on to either side of her harness, preventing her from spinning.  She tried, I stopped her so she just kept barking at the helper.  After several sessions of preventing her from spinning, she began to "try" less and less....and in turn her barking was more fluid and continuous.    I'd like to say i fixed it before it became a big problem.  But I am careful to keep my thumb on it incase it crops up again.

Some dogs left to use that spinning is an outlet for drive, you may not be able cap that drive well.  Thus their barking guard may suffer, if you are in a sport where the guard holds a lot of weight like schutzhund....that may be a problem.

Melanie,
Very well said and I do agree about leaking drive.  I also agree that if caught early and not rewarded it can be controlled.  I recently watched a video of a dog doing a hold and bark and spinning.  It was absolutely a nerve issue and the dog going into avoidance.  Perhaps, the dog was overwhelmed and the spinning in the blind released some of the tension.  As I said earlier, spinning on the back tie is not a big deal to me and does show extremely high drive (I like high drive dogs) and as bubba mentioned the dog can still be an excellent dog.  But the dog should contain itself and not take it's eyes off the decoy or spin while guarding.  Most intense high drive dogs will stay focused in front of the decoy and not spin when the decoy is "in reach."  The dog I mentioned that spun during the hold and bark was medium drive and clearly had some nerve issues, a completely different picture.  

Spinning in a kennel is an outlet and can be problematic, but not a big deal if the dog can settle and focus while working.  

My spinner shows her avoidance by running smack over the helper if he doesn't get his slow ass out of her way as she is coming fast and she is not slowing down.

There's an old saying-
Spin in the blind-spin in the mind 

Good point Slamdunc I could see it being a nerve issue with some dogs too.  Although I could also see spinning in front of a decoy as displaced conflict behavior (ie dog knows he can't "bother the decoy" but can't contain it either) a training issue

I believe my female initially 'learned' it as a way to "get away from me" and to the helper....by a couple poorly timed releases by me (and letting go is an unavoidable reaction when your wrist is about to break lol)....in the end she learned by spinning she could get what she wanted...to go to the helper.  So anytime she got frustrated that I was holding her back, she began trying to spin....which left to allow would have been a leaking drive issue.

I'll PM you a video of the session she started spinning.