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by workingdogz on 11 December 2012 - 10:12
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A wise man (competitor) once told me "Old dogs never die, they just get better with the telling" and another wise man (prison service) told me "We had the best dogs in the past, they had to be to put up with our crap training" Margaret N-J |
to survive our lack of knowledge! If one could turn back time and have
another chance with a dog they had 15+ years ago? First thing I would
do is buy my dog a steak and say how very sorry I am for being such a
piss poor trainer
by Rik on 11 December 2012 - 11:12
"they had the capacity to withstand really bad training - is that a good trait?"
it is in my opinion.
it is in my opinion.
by Gustav on 11 December 2012 - 12:12
Are you asking about the breed as a whole or are you asking about a small segments of the breed. Truthfully, if youtube is the means of assessing dogs worldwide....aww forget it. The training is more diverse than it was years ago....the dogs are much different also. The people who TRAINED or titled a dog during both eras have good insights into this....but it is enlightening to see the past revisited.
by Gustav on 11 December 2012 - 13:12
The breed was more serious in the past as a whole, nerves were strong, and bodies were more lithe and athletic overall, thus enabling the breed to be prolific in work(police and military, real herding), and service(seeing-eye dogs) during that time. High willingness to attempt pretty much anything shown to them, with the structure, determination, fearlessness, to handle things like 6 to 7 foot straight walls.
Today, I see much more prey drive than the dogs of the past( forty years ago you almost never saw GS that always ran around with something in their mouth of their own volition), which has led to expanded training modules, the structure overall is less utilitarian and much more stylish as cosmetic issues have become very very important in show and breeding circles.
In the past you did see weak nerves as you do today, but the expression on the weak nerves was often at the other end of the spectrum. What I mean by that is I seldom saw GS with that fearful worried look with tail tucked up under the belly that you far too often see today. What you did see was more of the reactive aggression type dogs that were from weaker nerves,( I know all reactive aggression is not weak nerves but some is). You saw less hyperactivity in the dogs of the past, but you did not have the full grips as often.
But the most important thing in this discussion is the shape of the breed as a whole.....there are far more breeders for pet dogs today than in the past....now there websites and their righteous indignation won't reveal this, but the vast majority of the breed today is bred to produce pet type dogs. NOT saying this is good or bad, just saying it is what it is. Just like our society today, far more of our breed needs therapy than in times past.
keeping in mind that there are exceptions to what I write, but this is what I routinely see then and now. It depends on your values as to which is better, no right or wrong....just preferences
.
Today, I see much more prey drive than the dogs of the past( forty years ago you almost never saw GS that always ran around with something in their mouth of their own volition), which has led to expanded training modules, the structure overall is less utilitarian and much more stylish as cosmetic issues have become very very important in show and breeding circles.
In the past you did see weak nerves as you do today, but the expression on the weak nerves was often at the other end of the spectrum. What I mean by that is I seldom saw GS with that fearful worried look with tail tucked up under the belly that you far too often see today. What you did see was more of the reactive aggression type dogs that were from weaker nerves,( I know all reactive aggression is not weak nerves but some is). You saw less hyperactivity in the dogs of the past, but you did not have the full grips as often.
But the most important thing in this discussion is the shape of the breed as a whole.....there are far more breeders for pet dogs today than in the past....now there websites and their righteous indignation won't reveal this, but the vast majority of the breed today is bred to produce pet type dogs. NOT saying this is good or bad, just saying it is what it is. Just like our society today, far more of our breed needs therapy than in times past.
keeping in mind that there are exceptions to what I write, but this is what I routinely see then and now. It depends on your values as to which is better, no right or wrong....just preferences
.by Gustav on 11 December 2012 - 13:12
One last thing....back in the day dogs were viewed as dogs, and today dogs are often viewed as people......some will understand the ramifications of this, others won't .
by isachev on 11 December 2012 - 13:12
Well put Gustav! Well put!!!
by Koach on 11 December 2012 - 14:12
Well put Gustav.
May I add from my own personnal experience (1970 until now).
Back then;
More serious (aloof, civil, defence) but discerning.
Higher thresholds.
More handler/familly oriented,
More hardiness (cold weather, poorer diet),
Less surface/noises issues,
More work oriented instincts.
Today;
More prey,
A certain "Malinoisation",
More restlessness,
Better hips,
less over/underbites,
less testicule problems.
May I add from my own personnal experience (1970 until now).
Back then;
More serious (aloof, civil, defence) but discerning.
Higher thresholds.
More handler/familly oriented,
More hardiness (cold weather, poorer diet),
Less surface/noises issues,
More work oriented instincts.
Today;
More prey,
A certain "Malinoisation",
More restlessness,
Better hips,
less over/underbites,
less testicule problems.
by Kaffirdog on 11 December 2012 - 14:12
I agree with your observations Koach, but suspect different environment compared to today supported some of them,
Higher thresholds.
More handler/familly oriented,
More hardiness (cold weather, poorer diet),
Less surface/noises issues,
are all traits that are enhanced by a dog living and eating with the family and gaining more experience of the outside world by going out and about with them. They are also traits suppressed by being kennelled, more limited life experience outside a training environment and travelling about in a vehicle instead of walking and using public transport.
Margaret N-J
Higher thresholds.
More handler/familly oriented,
More hardiness (cold weather, poorer diet),
Less surface/noises issues,
are all traits that are enhanced by a dog living and eating with the family and gaining more experience of the outside world by going out and about with them. They are also traits suppressed by being kennelled, more limited life experience outside a training environment and travelling about in a vehicle instead of walking and using public transport.
Margaret N-J
by Sunsilver on 11 December 2012 - 15:12
Here's one of the big diffeences:
Oh, heck, Gustav already mentioned it!
Just read his post. Most of what I was going to say is there. Was it Stephanitz who said the GSD was second-best at everything? That's the main thing we've lost: that versatility. Now most breeders are breeding for a particular purpose, whether Schutzhund, the show ring or the pet market.
The type of nervy dog he's talking about is often called 'sharp shy.' It's a fearful dog that will bite when stressed. They were quite common in some of the American lines, and included some well-known studs.
Obviously, such a dog should never be bred, but the almightly buck has a babit of trumping common sense....
Gustav said: One last thing....back in the day dogs were viewed as dogs, and today dogs are often viewed as people......some will understand the ramifications of this,
others won't .
Oh, yes! And that's something I hate to the depths of my soul!
I run an old-fashioned kennel. Dog's don't run free together. There is chain link and tile walls, and the outdoor runs are concrete to allow for careful cleaning of the runs, and to prevent digging.. The new breed of pet owner expects to see a boarding facility that resembles their living room, complete with piped in music or even TV. They want the outdoor part of the facility to resemble their backyard, or maybe a farm.
Of course, these new faclilites are easier to set up and run, as you don't have to invest thousands of dollars into chain-link fencing.
Now and then, I'll get a new client whose dog has suffered the fallout from one of these cage-free boarding facilities, like the daschund that came in with a 3" long scar on his back...
Sorry for the OT rant, but I had to get it out of my system!
Oh, heck, Gustav already mentioned it!
Just read his post. Most of what I was going to say is there. Was it Stephanitz who said the GSD was second-best at everything? That's the main thing we've lost: that versatility. Now most breeders are breeding for a particular purpose, whether Schutzhund, the show ring or the pet market.
The type of nervy dog he's talking about is often called 'sharp shy.' It's a fearful dog that will bite when stressed. They were quite common in some of the American lines, and included some well-known studs.
Obviously, such a dog should never be bred, but the almightly buck has a babit of trumping common sense....
Gustav said: One last thing....back in the day dogs were viewed as dogs, and today dogs are often viewed as people......some will understand the ramifications of this,
others won't .
Oh, yes! And that's something I hate to the depths of my soul!
I run an old-fashioned kennel. Dog's don't run free together. There is chain link and tile walls, and the outdoor runs are concrete to allow for careful cleaning of the runs, and to prevent digging.. The new breed of pet owner expects to see a boarding facility that resembles their living room, complete with piped in music or even TV. They want the outdoor part of the facility to resemble their backyard, or maybe a farm.
Of course, these new faclilites are easier to set up and run, as you don't have to invest thousands of dollars into chain-link fencing.
Now and then, I'll get a new client whose dog has suffered the fallout from one of these cage-free boarding facilities, like the daschund that came in with a 3" long scar on his back...
Sorry for the OT rant, but I had to get it out of my system!
by kipka on 11 December 2012 - 22:12
Being forced to do the bh certainly sent the breed off on a different direction its up to the personal needs of the owners use of the dog to determine if this was a right turn or not but it sure seems to have been a point in time of distinc change. Old dogs were good but modern dogs are a whole lot safer to be around lol
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