GSD as a full time live stock guardian? - Page 2

felloffher
Llamas and alpacas are great for keeping foxes away (we don't have wild coyotes in UK, LOL) - but I really would not want to back even a big strong & nasty male Llama against a Cougar.

I only have one dog I would trust for this. She is a very intense, very natural herder. I can trust her with all of the livestock. There have been a few other dogs who I've used for herding and they were okay, but when I compare them to this bitch they are sadly lacking. 

Her entire life is herding. If I left her outside 24/7 she would be content to watch over all of the livestock from her perch. She will chase off other dogs/animals (including hawks) and then go back to her perch and watch.

Then again, she is not your typical GSD herding dog either. She herds more like a Border Collie. 

For the record, she has had training to compliment her natural talent. I taught her to wait and watch from the time she was about 6 months old. That said, she wouldn't be as good as she is and as trustworthy without the natural ability/desire to do so. 

Hundmutter, a big, nasty male llama is also going to be a danger to the humans walking in with the goats. But I agree that they are no match for a cougar..not even a big ol sarplinac if the cougar is hungry! We have cougars here as well, but a hot wire raised above the fence is going to make it a little more difficult for even a cat to jump...after all, they are not fool hardy as getting injured is same as death warrant for an animal like that. At least a dog will bark to let you know there's trouble. Felloffher, goats are not real complicated; keep them on a worming schedule and feed them good, the meat is the best of any red meat, Boers are my favorite to deal with and are high yield.

Just want to mention, GSDs do certainly love being with their person, but when it comes to using one to work livestock.....you better be there at the same time as your gsd or you may not have any livestock left that need herding.

Llamas and alpacas are great for keeping foxes away (we don't have wild coyotes in UK, LOL) - but I really would not want to back even a big strong & nasty male Llama against a Cougar.

I wouldn't want to match a GSD against a cougar! The cougar might run off, but the GSD will probably be near dead.

Donkeys are another good deterrent; at least against canines.  Not sure if they will stand up against a cougar though. 

You say you do not want a LSG dog because of your GSDs.....  Since normally LSG are raised with the livestock from a pup, would your GSD not take ok to a new puppy that they see rarely (as the LSG will live with your livestock and your GSDs are living elsewhere like in your home), but are introduced well from the beginning?

Where I live, most of the ranchers use either Great Pyrenees, Llamas, or Donkeys for their 24/7 LSG.   They then have a separate canine group for herding.

Cougars are a challenge.  Your best bet will probable be the wire; make sure there are no trees over hanging the fence though (those are perfect bridges for cougars).

I would expect you also have bobcats.  Those are almost as crafty as a house cat and can squeeze into tight places.  With this in mind, i recommend at least 2 types of deterrents; up high like the wire and on the ground. 

Fawn, in the seventies, I was with a show that was owned by a lady who was, shall I say, eccentric. She had two "pet" leopards that she brought with her when she was on the road. The biggest of the two, a yearling, got loose when we were at a show site in RI. Needless to say, there was pandemonium on the grounds. We had a twenty year old donkey gelding that traveled with us. The cat ran over to Snuffy, the donk, and didn't have time to do whatever might have been on his mind because Snuffy stomped and snapped his teeth at the leopard like a whirl wind. He chased the cat, which was in a panic, right up a tree ! That's where the big cat stayed til his rescuers could retrieve him. So if you have the right donkey, the would put up a fight, but would probably loose to a hungry cougar. Any hoofed animal is a prey animal and will save themselves against attack, including running away. If a predator is after goats or sheep, a llama or donkey can't be expected to put their life on the line to save another animal.

Yeah, that is my thinking too.  I know donkeys will actually go after canines, but I remember that nothing much survived a hungry cougar.

If the OP has a cougar problem and a wolf problem, their best bet is to use 2 forms of protection (there is a third, but I do not want to go into that on an open forum).

I also recommend talking to other ranchers in your area (50 mile radius).  They are dealing with the same issues and will give you good pointers.

Jenni, I took a look at the link you posted, Apollo sounds so incredible.  I'm a sucker for beautiful dogs with flashy conformation....but....I'd love to have the ugliest mutt on earth if it had such a brilliant mind and temperament.  (not saying Apollo is ugly at all, he looks great!)  btw, I noted that Apollo is a nephew of a male owned by one of my really good friends.  Apollo's dam is a littermate sister to the male I know.  That dog is also pretty good with the livestock and has above average intelligence, but Apollo sounds like he's a canine genius. 

I want to note here that the GSD is one of the most versatile herding/livestock dogs.  A true old fashion herding GSD will work by itself without having it's owner/handler present.  Also, remember that part of the HGH routine includes protection (in this case, protecting the flock from human thieves or attacker.) 
In the early developement of the GSD, there were many, many herding and livestock gaurd dogs brought together for the breed developement.  These herding/gaurd dogs all had different styles.  The type of herding needed and the type of livestock protection needed varies greatly between regions.   What one town or region of Germany needed in it's herding GSDs was different then what another town or region needed.  Based upon the landscape/geography, the temperament of the livestock, the land boundaries and the local predators. 

Today, most people only see herding as what happens in the trials, be they HGH or American style herding trials.  These trials and competitions are a mere shadow to the real thing.  

The GSD was meant to be versatile, including versatility on the farm.  This requires extreme intelligence and thinking ability, not single-minded, single-purpose robotic drive. 

Though I enjoy schutzhund, highly appreciate SAR and police/military capabilities in a dog.  What I personally want the most out of my GSDs is dogs who I can trust as all-around farm dogs, to protect the farm and livestock, to be a border if I needed a border, to move the animals if I needed them moved, and a more. 
(btw, no, I don't currently live on a farm or have livestock, but it's what I want the most)

In regards to LGDs, I personally like the Spanish mastiffs.  But if I had a cougar problem (thank God we don't in my state!) then I'd get some Filas. 


Just like with individual dogs,...donkeys, mules and llamas aren't always a good choice.  Years ago when we had Klaire, a Czech/DDR working line, my dad spent a summer farm-sitting/rehabbing someone's house while they went overseas.  It was a beautiful 10 acres and they left 3 adult gelded llamas there while they were gone.  Klaire was there every day and her favorite thing to do was watch the llamas.  She would often go into their pasture and work her own border, move them from one side to another or just lay under a tree in their pasture to watch them.  The llamas were a little bit cowed by her, never once did any spit, kick or stomp at her.   So it seems to me that those 3 would've been a real let down as a guardian animal.
My friend with a farm and meat goats got a miniature mule yearling to put in with his goats...mule went crazy and tried to kill the goats