Looking for Stud dog!!! - Page 2

"tight linebreeding" does not describe a sister-brother breeding.  That would be inbreeding.  "Tighten up on Ellute" is also an understatement" - this would be doubling up, or overlapping, or - maybe best to find a grandson, instead of a son -
 
anyway best of luck with your endeaver!  I hope you touch base here about your choice of stud dog, and how the pups turn out.

"tight linebreeding" does not describe a sister-brother breeding.  That would be inbreeding.  "Tighten up on Ellute" is also an understatement" - this would be doubling up, or overlapping, or - maybe best to find a grandson, instead of a son -


What Molly said!

@Yellowrose of Texas

You did say hi to him and he answered you back but it wasn't on that thread or any thread he made.

It's right here on page 3, on The Hardest GSD's thread ~ kt484's thread
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum.read?mnr=158827&pagen=3

He's at the bottom and you are two posts above him  :)  Glad I could help find it for you!

Feel free to ask for help should you forget again, where you posted something.

We've helped others before and don't mind  :)

StrayPixels

gracias

Your female looks like she has alot of Czech blood in her I would bring in a male that not only brings to the table Tom Ellute or Eros but talk to thoses that know the Czech working lines the best,have you talked to Hans in AZ,it looks like some of the males mentioned also have alot of Czech blood in them,I would also perhaps not rule out a male out of Vito like Bandit,look at some top producing grandsons like some posters have already mentioned.

With the following breeding being a 2-2 on Ellute is close, but because the mothers side is so different wouldnt that bring in enough "outcrossing" to help with potential health issues? just a thaught and trying to get oppinions.

With the following breeding being a 2-2 on Ellute is close, but because the mothers side is so different wouldnt that bring in enough "outcrossing" to help with potential health issues? just a thaught and trying to get oppinions.

It might and it might not. One way you get problems is by pairing rare recessive genes so they end up coming to light. Say you have a female that has an extremely rare gene for failing to develop the liver that she inherited from her father that he got from his father. Because the gene is so rare, it's never come to light because it's always been recessive. But if you breed your female to a littermate of your bitch's grandfather (that would be a 2-3 on the litter) and that dog has the same rare gene--then maybe  25% of your litter dies in utero or shortly after birth.

Say it's something more common but something polygenetic--like, maybe, a predisposition for elbow problems. Maybe there's 5 genes responsible and your dog has 1 copy of the recessive for this problem for every gene. Your dog will never have a problem with her elbows, but you breed back really closely and these problems can pop up.

The thinking of breeders for much of the last 150 years has been something like "you breed real close to 'force' the recessive problems to show up" -- the unhealthy puppies die in utero or as babies, you cull out (kill or don't breed) anything odd like the pup with the white blaze and 4 white feet and the puppies with the spinal bifida, and then puppies that are left should be strong and "clean" of genetic problems (assuming they don't develop HD or allergies or perianal fistulas or bloat or some other problem as they mature--which is a risk with every puppy). Old-time breeders who did lots of close inbreeding will say "you have to have a strong stomach and a hard heart"--because you can end up with some really awesome pups but you can end up with some real sad cases and small litters or puppies that have to be euthanized at birth.

All of these things can happen with any breeding--but inbreeding or close linebreeding will bring more of this to the fore.

Now that we know more about genetics and how they work, there is a strong argument for breeding for "hybrid vigor" -- which is a misnomer whenever you breed within a breed of dogs, since they are all closely related. But it is the other way to go to keep the gene pool more open and not crowded around one or two dogs. (Such as extreme backmassing on a single dog in show line pedigrees, or on 2 or 3 dogs in working pedigrees--which we are already seeing.)

I think every thinking breeder has to decide how they want to prioritize--what level of "risk" are they comfortable with? How many unhealthy puppies are you willing to bring into the world in order to get one extraordinary puppy?

A single 2-2 breeding isn't really that close--not if there is plenty of diversity in the parents (e.g., look at whether your proposed breeding is linebreeding on the same ancestors that your dogs are already linebred on). You may never have a problem and if the parents are chosen carefully and health screened, the resulting pups may be healthy and super workers and wonderful producers.

Christine

Same idea as this post
Line breeding on Tom Vant Leefdalhof