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by Zep on 05 January 2012 - 00:01
Oh and yes, Duke's were to deep in the cavity, would have required some kind of surgery either way.
by hexe on 05 January 2012 - 05:01
"Why can't you have them located and dropped?"
Trouble is, Jenni, drop them *where*? Since both testes are retained, the dog's scrotum never developed, so it would be a bit more involved than just popping them out of the abdomen and into a waiting sac...
Sorry to hear about your dog losing all his conditioning to such an extreme degree AND so quickly, but that really is unusual--unless he also became a complete sofa cushion and never moved faster than a begrudging walk from that point forward, there is no physiologic reason for him to have deteriorated so drastically from the neutering... Now, it's possible he suffered some sort of complications in response to the anesthesia agent, or the suture materials used, or even a surgical sponge inadvertantly left in the body cavity, and I could see *that* bringing such a result, but a routine surgery to remove one or more retained testicles, not something that would be expected to occur.
My primary concern with retained testes isn't so much the cancer issue, but rather testicular torsion, which can be life-threatening if not diagnosed and alleviated quick enough:
[Material below is Copyright September 14, 2008, http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com. All rights reserved, protected under Australian copyright. No images or graphics on this Pet Informed website may be used without written permission of their owner, Dr. Shauna O'Meara.]
5a. Testicular torsion (twisted testicle condition):
Testicular torsion is the condition whereby the testis rotates on the end of its testicular cord (vas deferens and testicular blood supply), such that the vas deferens (also called the ductus deferens or spermatic cord) and testicular blood vessels become spiralled tightly around each other. This effectively results in the vas deferens strangling and cutting off the testicle's blood supply. The testis itself becomes starved of blood and is subsequently unable to receive life-giving nutrients and oxygen nor eliminate metabolic waste products such as lactic acid and carbon dioxide. The ultimate consequence of this is that the strangled testis initially becomes very swollen and enlarged and painful and then it gradually begins to die and rot within the animal.
Testicle torsion can occur within the scrotal sac (i.e. it can occur in properly descended testicles), however this is not very common because the testicle is typically held in a very tightly-fixed position within the scrotal pouch. The scrotal testis does not get much opportunity to move around, much less rotate about on its blood vessel and vas deferens attachments. When the condition does occur in a scrotal testicle, the pet develops a very hot, swollen, painful, enlarged testicle and scrotum. The animal will be reluctant to sit; it will seem painful; it will not allow the testicle to be touched and it will tend to constantly lick and bother at the painful, swollen region. Left long enough, the scrotum may become necrotic (rot) and turn black and the animal will become sick. Treatment involves removal of the affected testicle (i.e. castration of that damaged testicle) and the prognosis is normally good.
Whilst testicular torsion is very uncommon in the scrotal testicle, it is significantly more common in an undescended testis, particularly an undescended, abdominally-located testis. Abdominal testicles are not tightly fixed into position (see the image of the cryptorchid cat testes below) and are, instead, free to float about within the abdominal cavity on their long vascular and spermatic duct cords. They therefore have much more chance than scrotal testes do of spinning about and twisting on their testicular attachments, leading to testicular torsion and strangulation. The chances of a cryptorchid animal developing a testicle torsion is particularly high if the retained testicle has developed a cancer (tumour) of any kind. Enlarged, undescended testicles with large tumors growing off them are very likely to become unbalanced and rotate about on their blood vessel attachments, particularly when the animal runs around (big tumour-testicles will tend to bounce about in the belly much more than small testicles will).
When torsion does occur in an abdominal testicle, the animal will initially present with signs of acute abdominal pain and a reluctance to move. The animal might be inappetant (not willing to eat) and lethargic and exhibit other signs of internal discomfort (e.g. panting, teeth grinding, pacing, restlessness, vomiting, crying when touched). If the condition goes undiagnosed, the torsed abdominal testicle will rot, resulting in peritonitis (severe inflammation of the abdominal cavity); ascites (an abdomen full of fluid); vomiting; severe shock (collapse, high heart rate, pale gums, cold extremities and so on) and even death. Treatment involves supportive care (fluids, antibiotics, treatment for shock) and immediate surgical removal of the affected testicle. The prognosis is good if the condition is caught early, but guarded to poor if the condition is diagnosed late and severe peritonitis and shock has set in. [End excerpt from"Veterinary Advice On-line: Cryptorchidism (Retained testicles)-- http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com ]
Trouble is, Jenni, drop them *where*? Since both testes are retained, the dog's scrotum never developed, so it would be a bit more involved than just popping them out of the abdomen and into a waiting sac...
Sorry to hear about your dog losing all his conditioning to such an extreme degree AND so quickly, but that really is unusual--unless he also became a complete sofa cushion and never moved faster than a begrudging walk from that point forward, there is no physiologic reason for him to have deteriorated so drastically from the neutering... Now, it's possible he suffered some sort of complications in response to the anesthesia agent, or the suture materials used, or even a surgical sponge inadvertantly left in the body cavity, and I could see *that* bringing such a result, but a routine surgery to remove one or more retained testicles, not something that would be expected to occur.
My primary concern with retained testes isn't so much the cancer issue, but rather testicular torsion, which can be life-threatening if not diagnosed and alleviated quick enough:
[Material below is Copyright September 14, 2008, http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com. All rights reserved, protected under Australian copyright. No images or graphics on this Pet Informed website may be used without written permission of their owner, Dr. Shauna O'Meara.]
5a. Testicular torsion (twisted testicle condition):
Testicular torsion is the condition whereby the testis rotates on the end of its testicular cord (vas deferens and testicular blood supply), such that the vas deferens (also called the ductus deferens or spermatic cord) and testicular blood vessels become spiralled tightly around each other. This effectively results in the vas deferens strangling and cutting off the testicle's blood supply. The testis itself becomes starved of blood and is subsequently unable to receive life-giving nutrients and oxygen nor eliminate metabolic waste products such as lactic acid and carbon dioxide. The ultimate consequence of this is that the strangled testis initially becomes very swollen and enlarged and painful and then it gradually begins to die and rot within the animal.
Testicle torsion can occur within the scrotal sac (i.e. it can occur in properly descended testicles), however this is not very common because the testicle is typically held in a very tightly-fixed position within the scrotal pouch. The scrotal testis does not get much opportunity to move around, much less rotate about on its blood vessel and vas deferens attachments. When the condition does occur in a scrotal testicle, the pet develops a very hot, swollen, painful, enlarged testicle and scrotum. The animal will be reluctant to sit; it will seem painful; it will not allow the testicle to be touched and it will tend to constantly lick and bother at the painful, swollen region. Left long enough, the scrotum may become necrotic (rot) and turn black and the animal will become sick. Treatment involves removal of the affected testicle (i.e. castration of that damaged testicle) and the prognosis is normally good.
Whilst testicular torsion is very uncommon in the scrotal testicle, it is significantly more common in an undescended testis, particularly an undescended, abdominally-located testis. Abdominal testicles are not tightly fixed into position (see the image of the cryptorchid cat testes below) and are, instead, free to float about within the abdominal cavity on their long vascular and spermatic duct cords. They therefore have much more chance than scrotal testes do of spinning about and twisting on their testicular attachments, leading to testicular torsion and strangulation. The chances of a cryptorchid animal developing a testicle torsion is particularly high if the retained testicle has developed a cancer (tumour) of any kind. Enlarged, undescended testicles with large tumors growing off them are very likely to become unbalanced and rotate about on their blood vessel attachments, particularly when the animal runs around (big tumour-testicles will tend to bounce about in the belly much more than small testicles will).
When torsion does occur in an abdominal testicle, the animal will initially present with signs of acute abdominal pain and a reluctance to move. The animal might be inappetant (not willing to eat) and lethargic and exhibit other signs of internal discomfort (e.g. panting, teeth grinding, pacing, restlessness, vomiting, crying when touched). If the condition goes undiagnosed, the torsed abdominal testicle will rot, resulting in peritonitis (severe inflammation of the abdominal cavity); ascites (an abdomen full of fluid); vomiting; severe shock (collapse, high heart rate, pale gums, cold extremities and so on) and even death. Treatment involves supportive care (fluids, antibiotics, treatment for shock) and immediate surgical removal of the affected testicle. The prognosis is good if the condition is caught early, but guarded to poor if the condition is diagnosed late and severe peritonitis and shock has set in. [End excerpt from"Veterinary Advice On-line: Cryptorchidism (Retained testicles)-- http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com ]
by windwalker18 on 05 January 2012 - 19:01
The only reason I can think of to "drop them" into the scrotum rather than to alter the dog during surgery to find them would be in hopes of leaving the male fertile to breed, and if he's got retained testicles that would cross him off most any responsible breeders list anyhow.
We've just decided that my boy won't be bred, and as much as I adore him as a whole male, he's nearly 3, and won't physically change that much by being altered. I also don't want him to accidently be bred. I'm not worried about him being mad at me... He's not going to be looking for them anyhow, and loves me even when I'm an idiot!! LOL
by jc.carroll on 05 January 2012 - 20:01
I have yet to see any appreciable change in any males I've owned after neutering. Cats, dogs, exotics... They haven't changed. The only difference is the Tom cat stopped spraying on everything. The dogs, still lift their leg to pee, chase females in season, etc. I am a rather big proponent of spay/neutering animals not for breeding. I hear horror stories, but have never had any issues first hand.
by jc.carroll on 05 January 2012 - 20:01
I would ask that your vet prescribe painkillers for your boy post-surgery. Dogs might not -need- pain killers for a routine neuter, but adominal surgery is a pretty major enterprise, and having had a few abdominal surgeries myself, I think it only fair to help my pets feel comfortable post-op and during recovery.
by Gator113 on 05 January 2012 - 21:01
Thank you, each and every one of you.
I don't come here often, but when I do I am always impressed with the knowledge and help that comes from this GSD loving group.
I thank you and my Falco thanks you.
Cheers.......
I don't come here often, but when I do I am always impressed with the knowledge and help that comes from this GSD loving group.
I thank you and my Falco thanks you.
Cheers.......
by hexe on 06 January 2012 - 00:01
j.c.caroll, it's now considered the 'standard of care' for a pain reliever to be administered at the conclusion of the surgery, before the animal is taken off general anesthesia, and follow that up by prescribing additional pain relief medication that's to be given for several days post-op at the very least, so I don't think Gator113 will need to ask.
Gator113, it's good to hear the board responses were able to ease your concerns. Let us know when he has his surgery, and we'll all send good thoughts for him your way. Can't hurt, right? :)
Gator113, it's good to hear the board responses were able to ease your concerns. Let us know when he has his surgery, and we'll all send good thoughts for him your way. Can't hurt, right? :)
by Kalibeck on 06 January 2012 - 02:01
You could buy a set of "neuticles" ......they sell them for vets as sterile kits, ready for insertion into the animals scrotal sac....of course your vet would have to create a 'sac'..... a pair of anatomically correct prosthetic testicles! LOL! jackie harris
http://www.neuticles.com/procedure/proc01epid.wmv
(here's the link for an insertion video)
http://www.neuticles.com/procedure/proc01epid.wmv
(here's the link for an insertion video)
by jc.carroll on 06 January 2012 - 02:01
Hexe, around here I've found unless I ask for take-home meds, they're not offered. Different regions have different norms, I suppose. One of the previous places I lived, the critters practically got monogrammed pillows to rest up on, lol.
by windwalker18 on 06 January 2012 - 05:01
The only thing I've seen to watch for is bleeding @ the site of castration, there's a lot of little bleeders in the scrotum area and occasionally I've seen males who swelled a great deal. applying an Icepack to the area will help, but if it gets hot or swells excessively contact your Vet asap to have it checked. While probably not life threatening it can definitely be painful or uncomfortable for the dog. (Have seen it only a couple of times in hundreds of castrations, so not common, but worth mentioning just in case) Jill
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