Do I really need to "rough him up"? - Page 2

So if correcting isn't the way to go, why is he 10x better after correcting?  
???? HUH?

I'm not arguing, just confused.  The general consensus (I think) seems to be that the leash popping and knee thing is a bad idea and I need to work on being more engaging.  You mentioned consitant firm handling but I'm not sure what you meant by "firm" -- leash corrections?  More and tastier treats?  Threaten to send him to bed without any supper?  I'm just confused because, if those are bad ideas, why did he calm down and settle down to work happily after I did them?  I'm definitley willing to try something else if it would work better.  

You showed him some control which is what he needs, but you need to be consistent.
Firm means power, a strong correction, not nervous jerks.
One good pull at the right moment, timing is important, you must be ready.
Sometimes a correction will relocate a dogs direction, sometimes they my need a bit of air below their feet, other times a firm single pull should be enough, no two are for the same offense and so no two are the same strength but again be ready and quick at the perfect moment.
This goes hand in hand with a verbal correction at that same moment along with your displeasure, not a scolding just let him know that's not what's expected and your not happy at that moment.
Save your treats for special times or after a good days work. Too many treats takes away the reward aspect.
Trade praise for treats and only praise correct actions.
Personally I teach focus and obedience before moving on to other things like agility.
I'm not raggin on ya, just trying to add my opinions of corrections.

OK, I see what you're saying.  

The last four or five entries were done while I was typing so if some reiterates what Moons stated  I'm not ragging you either if it seems that way. I agree mostly with Moons. But for me, depending on how much longer the two of you, (the two that don't like each other) are together I would have the two of them wear muzzles. A couple of steps were missed/not totally learned by your dog, CAN'T worry, complain of someone else's. If time permits outside of that class: OBEDIENCE. If it doesn't , as soon as the class is over: OBEDIENCE. That is what it is. The kneeing I wouldn't do. The 20' correction isn't the right thing and it didn't work. Immediate and attention grabbing. With what little we see (and I could be wrong) but the correction isn't strong enough. The negative, unwanted action or actions have happened many times. It's a game to him now and you need to give the correction that makes him say...... "Damn, I better NOT do that again! Or EVEN think about it!"

We each have different ways, ideas. If it was me and you might get some looks? You want the unwanted action to cease, cease immediately and cease for good. When I was training with my service dog, Ginno at times would not "los" the ball, (release) He is so ball crazy that once in a while he would just say "f^ck you. It's mine and I'm not giving it up." Once he bit me and it was a pretty good bite. So I'm with my trainer and Ginno wouldn't "los" and I corrected him and them my trainer corrected me. I Feel for my animals and when I correct hard a part of me wonders if it was too hard. Well my trainer takes Ginno and some hard corrections Ginno was like as soon as the "l" of "los" was on your tongue he was spitting the ball out as fast as he could. Even tho the correction (I thought) was hard enough, it wasn't! So now, to just say the word and not even think of a correction is wonderful. I would have two collars on him; choker w/ flat or prong w/ flat. All my dogs have two collars. and I would have the choker/prong on "live" during this training and as soon as any unwanted action started I would strongly correct, making sure the choker/prong is in the proper position, the proper fit, the proper size. If done properly it won't be a constant battle or ongoing problem.

You can work on distractions separately also.
Setups.
You'll need a helper for these.
I do all of this on a longe line when they 4 to 6 months before anything else, this will teach focus better than anything I've ever used.
Makes leash corrects simpler, easier, and less drastic.
If you go to a prong you really need to be more calm and controlled with corrects.

We did a bunch of focus/obedience/distraction stuff in puppy class and obedience classes, but that's definitely fallen by the wayside as we've gotten into agility.  Re-reading what I wrote I realize I sound like a wild-eyed crazy person, but I'm actually always calm and collected during these times.  Waiting for him to hit the end of the leash and "popping" him into a 180-degree spin was timed and premeditated.  The deal with getting all into his personal space and backing him down with my knees was taught to me by a trainer/behaviorist about 10 years ago and something I've used before.  If there are better techniques out there I'm happy to switch though.  

Thanks for the advice everyone!

Perhaps you moved on before those lessons were completed, dunno.
Refreshers never hurt.
The knee things got some merit, but I'd prefer the 180 followed by other commands to change the subject before returning and trying again.
Reaffirm your title as the master.
Sometimes two dogs just rub each other the wrong way, not all dogs will get along, and even a well trained dog can be distracted, don't let anyone tell you it's not so.
All you can do is control you half of the equation, the other dog owner needs to share that burden too.

I go to a park where a local dog thinks he owns it and charges us, I do a full turn around and a sit and we stare him down, wait him out.
Now my dog looks at him like what a fool, he's confident and ingores his charges.
I always let him cover the other dogs markings just for spite.

P.S.
All in all I think your doing ok, just wanted you to make a firm correction and not a lot of tugging.
best of luck,
Moons.

Lots of good insight here. . . definitely going to re-read and digest.  Thanks everybody.