GSD's in the U.S today. vs the past - Page 2

Lets look at this phrase here. I hear a lot about "civil" drive and what not.

Quote: 

Therefore if a large population of GSD owners no longer are focussed on more than just prey drives, you end up with dogs that may lack in other drives.

I believe a dog either bites, or doesn't bite.

I believe that a dog who has to bite a person might not get it the first time, but hopefully he does, and likes it.

I believe that looking at a sport dog, who is very unlikely to need to bite a person, and judging it because it is not using "civil" drive does not mean that the dog could not have went down a different path. We do the exercises over and over and over and over and over and basically condition a prey response (with modifiers for the sport) to acts of aggression.

We do not live in a society that is dog friendly. I do not want my dog attacking the guy who works him in a non sport situation. Would the dog if it went down a different path in training be a different dog ? I have some that would show a civil tendancy. Buko most certainly. He was that way when I got him. Esko doesn't care if you are wearing protection, and Basco would be more than glad to bite you. 

I do not want them to be like that, and you would be right if you said that I do not even try to go that route.

Are we destroying this drive ? I don't know. I have three examples of dogs that would bite. That is three for three with my male dogs. Soda PoP will bite someone. Kyra ? She was in search and rescue, and was not trained to even think like that. I know she doesn't care if you are trying to get the ball and your fingers are in her mouth, does that count ? : ) That certainly sucked for me ! 

Very interesting thread and some super thoughts and input from all.
 
Here are just my thoughts on this matter after a 35+ year hiatus away from the working and now “sporting” GSD.
 
The dogs imported from WG were bigger back then but sometimes runts were dumped on us. There were more hip problems, more overbites/underbites and less conformity. I don’t recall any of our dogs back then being so nervy (unable to settle down in the house or kennel), etc. as some of today’s dogs. Lots of black and tan dogs in the 70’s, sables were rare. Today’s dogs seem more athletic.
 
OB training was real old school back then and the dogs had to be forgiving or they never made the cut. Of course they performed OB at a slower pace than today’s dogs trained in drive.
 
Not knowing better, at first, we trained all tracking/trailing with a bite and fight at the end of the track. A dog was never given a sleeve as a reward of any kind. The helper submitted and the dog was removed from the bite. Ditto for the protection training. Things started to change as WG trainers and judges were brought in for seminars and trials.
 
Some from USA and Canada started travelling to WG to buy titled dogs. More than one of these people selected titled dogs not by the points/scores in their books but by how hard the dog could be hit with the stick and then how hard the dog would fight back. Some of these were really tough dogs. I’m not sure any of today’s dogs would or could put up with that.
 
Training today’s dogs in drive is so much easier and humane but I’m not sure the dog is as “connected” to the handler. I find that generally speaking today’s dogs are less dominant, less civil, more social, more child and dog neutral, which is a reflex ion of today’s society and easier for average dog ownership.
 
I think that sport has made for a more spectacular dog today but his suitability as a mano-a-mano LE working dog may have been compromised.
 
As I practice French Ringsport now I find it amazing how today’s dogs (the ones suitable for FR that is) love the high intensity fight in prey and do not feel or have the need to become defensive. I doubt that the 70’s dogs could do that without getting into “defence”.
 
Today’s dog are different. Whether they are better or not I am not sure. I suppose it depends on what your needs are.
 
Just my thoughts after all these years,

Koach
I agree on many things

good sides of todays dogs

more social today,better family dogs because of their social nature,not so dominant, but their are downsides to
like

not able to stay in drive without have to have rewards all the time, and not be able to tolerate a correction without  loosing drive, not so versatile )because not because of their softer nature but because that are not testet before breeding)where tested more in the old days. I see more and more dogs that can not work in dark rooms, stairs, and many other eviromental issues, lacks a litle fighting spirit today dur to the softness
more anguled dogs  .
But like someone wrote I would like to see the old type dogs trained with the methods we use today

jamesfountain98
I know little or nothing about the Dogs in the USA but one point of your post prompt me to reply you say back in the old days they taught a Dog to sit by hitting it on the Butt with newspaper, Well i have been around dogs for over 60 years and never have i seen a dog taught that way to sit.
SIT is the easiest exercise to teach a Pup or even an older Dog and it is a natural thing for them to do so all anyone has to do is to say the word have a treat in the hand move your hand in front of the dogs nose and take the hand back over the dogs head the dog will sit automatically, I see no reason anyone should be walking around with a rolled up Newspaper to teach a dog to sit, Gave me a good laugh anyway
Steve1

I suppose the training methods we used in the 70's resembled what was then used in AKC and CKC training. Gentle positioning of the dog followed by praise. The reward was a voiced "good dog" and a pat on the head. Eventually the dogs caught on. Reliability was taught with the help of props. Cats, noises, traffic, kids running by, etc. OB was good and reliable but slow compared to today's standards. Disobedience was corrected with light to heavy compulsion depending on the situation. 

Seems most likely that some people started taking advantage of the dog's basic drives to train in drive. Most likely as these methods became successful in producing the desired effect we then started breeding dogs for more and more drive. 

I think it's all a matter of balance. When you gain something genetic in one  area you most likely will lose something in another area. It's all based on what the controlling humans want out of the breed. Like everything else in life "the pendulum swings".

I get more pleasure out of training today's dogs in drive but never quite get the feeling that they are doing it for me as part of the "owner/dog" team. When my dog looks at me I'm sure he sees a ball or a tug and not me.

Cheers,

Steve, I was about 5 years old and my granddaddy taught my aunt's poodle to sit this way. I'm sure this wasn't a regular practice but I do remeber it being a regular practice in many households to teach a dog to sit by pushing his butt down. I still know people today who refuse to use any type of food reward to teach even a puppy any obediance.  Now as I said early I wasn't around gsd's growing up or any professional style training techniques

Today i watched a young lady working with her Dog just prior to going on the work field to compete in the Obedience section of the Belgian National Championship, The Dog was like super glue as she got it footing and turning to loosen it up. Unfortunately i did not see her compete as we had to leave having had a phone call from a friend back home a minute or so earlier who wanted my help as soon as i could get back, so i missed half the competition and will not know the results for a few days now, But it does show what dedicated training does for both dog and handler and it is a treat to see a good team working together,
This young Lady had done her Tracking earlier with 98 points so i am hoping for her to do well plus she is my Vets Girlfriend and she being a Vet herself may be looking after my Dogs from Half September when there new Practice is finished and up and running
Steve1

I was just talking to and old guy which have trained dogs for many years and he tells that in the 80 's many dogs had awsome drive they did not need rewards all the time they could work under hard pressure where more civil had tons of prey and with the exstreme dominans they had ad the time difficult to train many dogs they could use E-collors  and these dont know what they are called but many dogs could not care less they would not let go off the sleve or ball or plaything  a litle hardness that we miss today

http://www.google.dk/imgres?q=pighalsb%C3%A5nd&hl=da&sa=X&tbm=isch&prmd=ivnsfd&tbnid=OlM8ysiBwF8PRM:&imgrefurl=http://www.avifauna.dk/halsb%25C3%25A5nd-tilbeh%25C3%25B8r-metal-c-356_847.html%3Fsort%3D3d%26page%3D1&docid=rFDmROKR77BGNM&w=300&h=219&ei=bpBaToyvAc3Xsgbaw4mrAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=461&vpy=109&dur=53&hovh=175&hovw=240&tx=143&ty=86&page=1&tbnh=155&tbnw=239&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&biw=1366&bih=646 

Myret,

That is a sharpened spike collar. I still have one and only used it once in the late 70's on a dog that would go straight to the blind, knock the decoy down and into the blind, stand over him and dare him to move. No dog for sport. Too serious.

Koach

oh spike colloers is what you call them


I like both types off dogs both the type you explain and the more social type as they are today but I am not that fond of the to soft dogs that cant handle a correction or new enviroment because of their lack of confidence or drive or what you will call it.