Which school of thought are you in??? - Page 2

Jenni I didn't mean to pose it as an either or I can see where my original post was misleading, I apologize.  It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that people that prefer outcrossing don't linebreed much if at all in their programs, the people that linebreed say they will use the ocassional outcross for the purposes you mentioned, some just use them more frequent than others I'm noticing.  There are a lot of abreviations used here most I can figure out but what is IOW? Daryl you prefer linebreeding and reading your post I can see the logic in the using the mating you did on the N liter (not from a dog point I don't know any of them, will research them later though :) ) it seems to have given you quite a few options with the results.  So why did you chose to outcross again? And did you use the dog later in another linebreeding?

Hi, Actually I know many breeders in Shepherds that have outcrossed to working lines ( this means both german show lines and ddr types) They don't seem to keep any of the resulting crosses very often though.  I know that Woodside Kennels did breed to Natz when he was in BC. No idea the results of this cross.  I've always been curious though.  Oh and I am a girl, just thought i would throw that out there :) 

Linebreeding is the way to go its the best way to get the desired drives your looking for( the fastest) and the closer the better just be careful you are not bringing in bad as you are striving for the best in what you are trying to produce.

It isn't really a matter of whether line breeding or outcross breeding, but which is the best way to get where I want to go.  Therefore, one should have a plan of what they want to accomplish before choosing their breeding mate(s).   ecs

IOW = In Other Words,

I chose to outcross again, because I have intended for a long time to bring the Nick/Yoschy lines to the Faro Policia bloodline.

As you asked, I would very much like to breed the resulting outcross in a later linebreeding, but I haven't yet, to ddr stud Ajax v Brandsteig.  This breeding would include neither the Nick/Yoschy, nor Faro bloodlines.

More toward my primary focus, my current litter is a linebreeding on Nick/Yoschy, from which a resulting female is intended to be brought to a male who is 3-3 on Faro Policia (Rexx z Jirkova dvora).  That will be another outcross.

Daryl :  I understand in linebreeding you would need to outcross to bring things to your kennels line especially if you ever want to have a Line that has your kennels mark on it.  I get the feeling from all the reading that it does take several generations before you are consistently linebreeding with only the ocassional outcross.  My question on that is if you are starting out with the majority of the breedings outcrosses aren't you still playing the crap shoot game? If there is no consistency in the dogs that you start with I wouldn't expect there to be any in the litter, that's why I asked if you use a linebred dog when you outcross.  I could have this all wrong since I'm just reading on this and for some reason the word linebred seems to be a bad word to alot of breeders, and for the life of me I can't understand why.  That is how the breed started it was very closely linebred.  But suggest a brother sister breeding ( same sire different dam) and most have an issue with that. (Sorry best ex I could think of)

The outcross of an unrelated pair of producers is less of a crapshoot in the case where one or both parents are themselves linebred.  Their levels of heterosis are lower, and they are therefore inherently more prepotent toward producing their own phenotype into the genotype of their offspring.

As I said, my "N" litter was an outcross of two unrelated but linebred producers, the sire a 3-2 on Bero v Friedersdorfer flur and the dam a 3-4,5 on Alf v Kornersee.  The litter WAS consistent of type, the results of which I brought to another unrelated but linebred producer, to perform another outcross with some very consistent traits, but not as much because she was an outcross.

Even in an outcross OR linebreeding, there should be consideration towards the similarity, complimentary, and compensatory values of the breeding.  For example, I had a bitch created from a half brother/sister mating like your example (that made her a 2-2 linebreeding), who had low drive for toy or food.  I bred her to a similar lined male for an even further linebreeding, but he also had low drive for toy or food.  There was no compensation for the needed balance, resulting in a very consistent litter, although not as useful towards contemporary motivational methods of training.

I’m with darylhert on it.

I just produced a totally outcrossed litter from closely linebred bitch and totally outcrossed male in search of ‘fresh blood’ and to improve bone and structure. Finding a right match took quite a bit of research and digging deep into pedigrees to make sure nothing unexpected will creep up. Both parents come from extremely similar and complementing yet totally unrelated lines. I was extremely lucky and the litter of 7 is exactly what I hoped for - extremely vigorous, healthy and uniform in looks and temperament. I’m totally impressed with the outcome. I kept a boy from this breeding and thinking of keeping another girl. If they’ll grow up as I expect them to do, I think of repeating this breeding. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=704036

I am a big proponent of correct linebreeding as the results are more predictable. But from time to time the outcross is necessary to bring “fresh blood” into the line. I believe in ‘bitch lines’ too, so if the outcross produces outstanding puppies, I would choose the best bitch and linebred on her.