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by Rik on 07 July 2011 - 20:07
I can only say how it works with Am. s/l, which I did for many years.
the stud owners getting the fees will never admit to anything.
the breeders with a waiting list for pups will never admit to anything.
they blame each other when issues can no longer be hidden.
don't know if that is a code of silence, but it's pretty much how it works on the money end of dogs. and I doubt it's very much different anywhere in the world.
Rik
the stud owners getting the fees will never admit to anything.
the breeders with a waiting list for pups will never admit to anything.
they blame each other when issues can no longer be hidden.
don't know if that is a code of silence, but it's pretty much how it works on the money end of dogs. and I doubt it's very much different anywhere in the world.
Rik
by Trouble97 on 07 July 2011 - 23:07
I wish too that there was a mandatory reporting of health problems on both stud dogs and females. Had too much personal experience with health and temperament issues in one litter that was blamed on my female, but as more puppies sired by the stud dog from other females got older you stopped seeing them anywhere because they had severe hip and/or elbow dysplasia as well as bad temperaments. It was sad to know that they bred him dozens or more times because in each litter there would be one outstanding puppy in temperament and conformation this is American show stuff. Every time I saw the stud dog owner who was sopsosed to be a friend they would ask how are the puppies because we just heard about more litters that have bad elbows or hips or both! Was extremely disappointing!! If only people could be honest about the problems that would help the breed greatly!!
by amysavesjacks on 08 July 2011 - 00:07
There is a website for people who DO WISH TO REPORT Health issues with their dogs (good/bad)
German Shepherd Dog
Breed Betterment Registry
http://www.gsdbbr.org/
This Registry has been created in an attempt to gather comprehensive health information which will enable breeders to make more informed breeding choices and to avoid doubling up on health issues.
German Shepherd Dog
Breed Betterment Registry
http://www.gsdbbr.org/
This Registry has been created in an attempt to gather comprehensive health information which will enable breeders to make more informed breeding choices and to avoid doubling up on health issues.
by Abby Normal on 08 July 2011 - 08:07
I like the idea of a breed betterment registry. It does not rely only on breeders providing information, but also owners, who may report the health issues the dog suffered from, without rancour, just facts. Many times an owner may not have informed a breeder of the problems, so it would be of great benefit to the breeder too.
If there is a 'code of silence' this is the type of registry that can 'break' it. The usual reasons breeders give for not revealing health problems is often stated as something along the lines of reputation will be ruined, or similar. I do not believe that to be the case, and whilst this attitude among some breeders prevails, we can never gain a true picture of current state of the health of the breed. Some of course as stated above, will not reveal the problems because they wish to continue breeding despite them. Some are very enlightened and will publish their results on specific databases.
I found the information on the BBR very interesting, and also the statistics. I guess the biggest issue is usage. How many people know of it and how frequently is it used.
This could be a major way forward, and in the UK is perhaps something the GSDL or breed council could implement, or even the UK KC, though I think that is most unlikely to happen with any of those organisations.
From a usage point of view, the PDB would be a great place for this type of registry, could this function be added to the PDB - I think it would be of enormous value. OLI ?
If there is a 'code of silence' this is the type of registry that can 'break' it. The usual reasons breeders give for not revealing health problems is often stated as something along the lines of reputation will be ruined, or similar. I do not believe that to be the case, and whilst this attitude among some breeders prevails, we can never gain a true picture of current state of the health of the breed. Some of course as stated above, will not reveal the problems because they wish to continue breeding despite them. Some are very enlightened and will publish their results on specific databases.
I found the information on the BBR very interesting, and also the statistics. I guess the biggest issue is usage. How many people know of it and how frequently is it used.
This could be a major way forward, and in the UK is perhaps something the GSDL or breed council could implement, or even the UK KC, though I think that is most unlikely to happen with any of those organisations.
From a usage point of view, the PDB would be a great place for this type of registry, could this function be added to the PDB - I think it would be of enormous value. OLI ?
by noddi on 08 July 2011 - 09:07
I,m with yu there Abby.have noted the link.thanks.i guess this WEBSITE is in the USA?Carole Spelman
by Abby Normal on 08 July 2011 - 11:07
Hi Carole
Yes, I'm thinking so.
But what a good idea. It makes very interesting reading, it would be phenomenal to have the same thing on a site like pdb, that gets a lot of traffic and hopefully would get a lot of usage.
In fact, I feel compelled to say that IMO initiatives like this would be far more useful to the breed than focusing on things like introducing new titles at shows.
Yes, I'm thinking so.
But what a good idea. It makes very interesting reading, it would be phenomenal to have the same thing on a site like pdb, that gets a lot of traffic and hopefully would get a lot of usage.
In fact, I feel compelled to say that IMO initiatives like this would be far more useful to the breed than focusing on things like introducing new titles at shows.
by violet on 08 July 2011 - 12:07
A breed betterment registry which is global would be ideal, considering how many people import and export dogs nowadays. It would also be great for people like me getting into the breed and who want to obtain a healthy sound dog to begin a breeding line with in the hopes of bettering the breed. In the future once all the older generation of breeders are no longer doing what they do best others need to take over and we need all this sort of info. Right now it's hard to know if info out there is out to ruin another breeder or is honest truth.
But it's down to whether breeders and owners alike wish to admit the problems. Personally I have far more respect for a breeder who is completely transparent with their breeding and if they have problems with a litter etc are willing to talk about it, and perhaps even start again if they find their line has serious issues. Some breeders are so scared about their reputation being ruined they ask owners with dogs who have problems to be quiet etc. To me this is unscrupulous and not a very good breeder. Most of the things I have learnt about GSD's so far have been through gossip down the breeding/owning lines. I don't like the fact that sometimes i've been told not to pass on info to others because it could get that person in trouble, however I respect that person for telling me in the first place, just not the person who tried to keep it a secret to begin with and the consequence subterfuge and it being gossip rather than genuine info to help. If there was more transparency the road to betterment would be far quicker and much more easily acieved because everybody would know combinations to avoid , and perhaps really work well together. However if breeders continue to hide their ' naughty little secrets' this will never happen.
Funny enough a new breed in this country has a site specifically where people can post up their dogs health problems, and its making it a heck of a lot easier to see where they are going wrong and where to go next. They have said absoloute clarity right from the beginning. It still takes time as these things do, but at least its easier to see which path to take. At least you'd be able to se the good breeders too, as they would be the ones using and posting on it. To me that says enough about whether a breeder is really in it for the breed or for money..
But it's down to whether breeders and owners alike wish to admit the problems. Personally I have far more respect for a breeder who is completely transparent with their breeding and if they have problems with a litter etc are willing to talk about it, and perhaps even start again if they find their line has serious issues. Some breeders are so scared about their reputation being ruined they ask owners with dogs who have problems to be quiet etc. To me this is unscrupulous and not a very good breeder. Most of the things I have learnt about GSD's so far have been through gossip down the breeding/owning lines. I don't like the fact that sometimes i've been told not to pass on info to others because it could get that person in trouble, however I respect that person for telling me in the first place, just not the person who tried to keep it a secret to begin with and the consequence subterfuge and it being gossip rather than genuine info to help. If there was more transparency the road to betterment would be far quicker and much more easily acieved because everybody would know combinations to avoid , and perhaps really work well together. However if breeders continue to hide their ' naughty little secrets' this will never happen.
Funny enough a new breed in this country has a site specifically where people can post up their dogs health problems, and its making it a heck of a lot easier to see where they are going wrong and where to go next. They have said absoloute clarity right from the beginning. It still takes time as these things do, but at least its easier to see which path to take. At least you'd be able to se the good breeders too, as they would be the ones using and posting on it. To me that says enough about whether a breeder is really in it for the breed or for money..
by VKGSDs on 08 July 2011 - 12:07
In some cases, yes there does seem to be a code of silence. Or, I've seen many breeders bash other breeders and their dogs yet never disclose when they have the very same problems in their own litters.
I value honesty and transparency. It does influence who I purchase from and will purchase from in the future. When I bought my most recent puppy, I knew going in that the breeder had a dog with a problem (not one of the parents of my litter). When I went to visit, I didn't ask anything about it yet the breeder brought it up and talked about it openly.
I have one dog with a congenital problem. It is not that rare of a problem nor usually causing any symptoms or even disqualifies a dog from breeding, but my dog has a more extreme case and it does effect him. I am open about it with those who ask. I've decided not to breed my dog because more than one of his littermates also suffered/suffere from more extreme/debilitating health problems, the kinds dogs are born with (though the parents and other littermates are still being bred. not my dogs so not my call). Some breeders accuse people of breeder bashing. Whatever. I do not regret getting any of my dogs, I would go back and get every single one of them again even in hindsight. I see all puppies as a crapshoot and do not hold it against the breeder if a problem crops up, I'm not going to demand a new dog or money back, but I do think it is hypocritical to pretend the problems don't exist or bash other breeders for the same problems.
I value honesty and transparency. It does influence who I purchase from and will purchase from in the future. When I bought my most recent puppy, I knew going in that the breeder had a dog with a problem (not one of the parents of my litter). When I went to visit, I didn't ask anything about it yet the breeder brought it up and talked about it openly.
I have one dog with a congenital problem. It is not that rare of a problem nor usually causing any symptoms or even disqualifies a dog from breeding, but my dog has a more extreme case and it does effect him. I am open about it with those who ask. I've decided not to breed my dog because more than one of his littermates also suffered/suffere from more extreme/debilitating health problems, the kinds dogs are born with (though the parents and other littermates are still being bred. not my dogs so not my call). Some breeders accuse people of breeder bashing. Whatever. I do not regret getting any of my dogs, I would go back and get every single one of them again even in hindsight. I see all puppies as a crapshoot and do not hold it against the breeder if a problem crops up, I'm not going to demand a new dog or money back, but I do think it is hypocritical to pretend the problems don't exist or bash other breeders for the same problems.
by charity on 08 July 2011 - 12:07
Hi guys,
Given my history with our beloved breed, including HD, bloat and EPI, I would be all for the registry.
However, BlackthornGSD makes a good point about true genetic problems and intrauterine formation issues.
Sorting it out seems like a monumental task.
Would vetrinarian documentation be included? How do we prevent it from disintegrating into bashing?
I don't think reputations need to be ruined provided the breeder is willing to confront the issues honestly and correct the problem.
Abby, you said it better than I could ever hope to:
If there is a 'code of silence' this is the type of registry that can 'break' it. The usual reasons breeders give for not revealing health problems is often stated as something along the lines of reputation will be ruined, or similar. I do not believe that to be the case, and whilst this attitude among some breeders prevails, we can never gain a true picture of current state of the health of the breed. Some of course as stated above, will not reveal the problems because they wish to continue breeding despite them. Some are very enlightened and will publish their results on specific databases.
Given my history with our beloved breed, including HD, bloat and EPI, I would be all for the registry.
However, BlackthornGSD makes a good point about true genetic problems and intrauterine formation issues.
Sorting it out seems like a monumental task.
Would vetrinarian documentation be included? How do we prevent it from disintegrating into bashing?
I don't think reputations need to be ruined provided the breeder is willing to confront the issues honestly and correct the problem.
Abby, you said it better than I could ever hope to:
If there is a 'code of silence' this is the type of registry that can 'break' it. The usual reasons breeders give for not revealing health problems is often stated as something along the lines of reputation will be ruined, or similar. I do not believe that to be the case, and whilst this attitude among some breeders prevails, we can never gain a true picture of current state of the health of the breed. Some of course as stated above, will not reveal the problems because they wish to continue breeding despite them. Some are very enlightened and will publish their results on specific databases.
by violet on 08 July 2011 - 13:07
Charity if it was simply a database where people posted pedigrees, health issues with related vet documentation and thats it. It should be fine. there would be no space for people to bash as there would be no forum etc to do it on. If people want more details on the info provided, then those posting it should be willing to share email adreesses or contact details to discuss further if need be, that way keeping bashing to a minimum. Its purely somewhere where information is stored. Least that's how i assume something like that would work. Personally for the amount of information put on it I think it would require alot of storage space and thought about how things would work, ie links to related dogs etc or even something like.. type in a health issue and it can search all dogs known to have been reported with that perticular issue or things stemming or related to that health problem. Would require alot of computer knowledge to set that up i think. You'd also need a section where dogs with non genetically inherited health issues could be registered, if people wish. It would have to be monitored to, to ensure people do not put up false information, or try to alter what anyone else has put up. It would require some pretty trust worthy people to run it. It would even be handy if it could be in multiple languages making it more accessible to those across the world. But one step at a time eh 
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