Full calm grips - indication of overall calmness? - Page 2

Why do dogs, genetically calm grip or not, sometimes chew on the "escape" grip? I can understand under stick hits and drive, but escape is the only trial exercise with a lot of "prey" elements. So why? I have seen these same dogs calm under drive and stick hits... So where is the correlation with prey?

 Quote: preydrive , can be devided in two different drives ,
first ;there are dogs who chase everything , but as soon as the prey stops moving they loose interest
second ; there are dogs that will chase , but as soon as they got hold on something they will not give up on it

So I guess the one dog has possesiveness, and the second just wants the game to start again is irrelevant, just two different drives somehow both called prey drive. LOL Busting your balls.

A calm bite is genetic. There are dogs that have it, but are not strong, some are strong, some never move their bite, so it is calm, but thrash like crazy. 

It is also a waste of time to put this ahead of everything else. I have seen sleeve suckers with little fight to them at all, have really calm bites. Doesn't mean I would want to breed to that, gonna produce a lot of door knobs. It is a small thing, and is only a bit of the equation. Sch is no longer a tool to be used for breeding. Too many can bullshit their way through it. LOL

jeff , for me they are both different drives , but both are somehow refered to as prey drive by most
calm bites are genetic ,, as is the drive, motivating the dog to bite at that time  , so for me there is the link , drive/bite
not  stress/bite  or courage/bite

Good discussion guys, thanks. I'm trying to digest & keep up with all this good info so forgive me if I say or ask anything stupid...

jeff/duke, so a calm bite is just a genetic component a dog may have but this doesn't necessarily equate to having a calm, clear headed character? The latter is also another (different) genetic component.

AandA

It is obvious that Prager/Duke/Jeff have all worked dogs extensively and many different types of dogs. Their answers reflect that there are genetic, training , and temperamental factors that will affect grips. Nothing is absolute but their are general criteria that seem to prevail. I also agree with Jeff in that when it comes to breeding, the full grip is not as important as people today make it especially in Sch. Full grips this, full grips that, hey I want my dog to have full hard grips, but i have seen many dogs(especially showlines) with full grips but were going along for the ride. I have seen dogs with full grips that are pulling to get away from pressure. These are not dogs I highly regard for breeding.JMO

Thank you Gustav, for a perfectly clear explanation.  Having seen plenty of "exceptions" to all of the statements that were made, I don't see the point in mentioning any oversimplified generalizations at all.  To me, prey and grips are distinctly different, and so are the various definitions of prey.  Some people try to lump prey and retrieve together, again they are separate.  Some people think a hard dog is never handler sensitive, or that a hard dog is "dominant", dominant and civil, and so on and so forth, to add again that is incorrect.  Anyway, I didn't post to bother telling anyone what I personally, I just wanted to know what "extra prey" was supposed to mean.

gustav , for me grips are not the number one thing but for sport/competition  oriented people it means everything
I trained with lots of top level and WUSV people , and for them , if a young dogs bite is not full and calm , the dog has to find a new home
one of my breeding bitches is crazy as a bat and very civil , if any part of the decoy comes closer to her than the sleeve , she will go for that part of the body , her bite on the sleeve is hard but sloppy , trying to kill it

if I show her to the top people , none of them would buy any offspring of her , while the same people are trying to buy a doughter of her that Im training now

PS  ; I never heard a criminal complain that the policedogs bite was not full and calm

Amen.  It's certainly more important to know that the dog will bite, than how it is done.  But having a dog to compete with that doesn't bite full when your intentions are to take it to higher levels in sport would be very diminishing of its reputation and understandably lacking in appeal as a producer for future competition dogs. 

Full grip is influenced by:
1. training. a)proper
                     b)improper
2. genetics of a) prey drive !) retrieve
                                              !!)Chasing 
                                             !!!)protection of prey item 
                                            
                        b)Defense ( protection)drive:!) Anger
                                                                           !!) Fight drive,
                                                                          !!!) Energy per Time spent during attack
                                                                         !!!!) courage inherited part.
                         d)inherited ability do deal with environmental situations ( floors, noises, distractions and so on)
3) Socialization
                                        
And combinations of these. I am sure that  someone will point to me that  have forgot something and that is welcomed,  but the points above definitely are included. I am sorry, but in this case there are no absolutes. And that is what I was trying to convey.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com