Difference between Schutzund and Personal Protection Training? - Page 2

Schbabe:

Again you are comparing a "Sport" trained dog to a "Schutzhund" dog that is what "muddies" the water most people don,t contemplate the difference. There are many talented trainers and decoys who train for the whole dog not just the sport aspect.    

SCH dog trained to focus on the sleeve? Than your trainer dose not know what he is doing, nothing worst than equipment focus dog. It's easier to find good SCH dog than a good PPD dog. It's even harder to find good trainer. And if you have dog that do both than he is a keeper. The difference is one is a sport and a game, the other one is for real. The intensity level is totally different, PPD dog are trained to take a hit, SCH dog's not to that extend. SCH aims for flashy (fully focus obedience) while PPD dogs aim is good obedience, that means no matter what the situation the obedience needs to be there, but it dose not have to be perfect. Most PPD dog's that I seen that had good obedience were trained to do obedience during bite work, do the obedience your reward is bite, rather than play with a toy, that re insure that the obedience was always there and the dog under full control, but the result was never flashy beautiful that you would want in SCh dog. BTW the topic been discussed over her over and over, it pups up at least 2 times a year. SCH dog is no PPD dog, and PPD dog is no SCH dog, when they two meet and can do both, they the kind of dogs to die for. Jim has one, his K9 started in SCh and now is a police k9, I believe it has to do with that sweet line breeding that he has on his dog ;). lol.

snaiper69:

I agree with your inital statement, But The "game" is only one aspect of Schutzhund  the "sport" has overridden the function to many times I will agree but the Schutzhund dog is a working dog first and foremost(or atleast should be) bred and trained for the job of working. The trials have declinned to the current state of prey,prey,prey and that is a sad state of affairs but there are still people involved with the dogs that breed for sound working abilities and proper temperment and drives suitable and tested for any work appointed to them and yes it sounds as if Jim,s dog fits that bill to the T.   

Bob, no doubt that many good trainers inject a dose of "reality" work into their training.  Kudos to them!  My points is that one should not automatically assume that any random Schutzhund trained dog has received the benefit of this kind of training.  I wish for the sake of the breed this was so.  I love to see dogs that have real heart and courage, regardless of the points they tally on the field. 

SchHBabe,   boy are you right!

I do not do competitive sport or schutzund, and am not a police officer.  I have a controlled personal protection dog (10 yr. Rott/Shep) mix that I started and trained under a master trainer.  Is there anyone else on this board like me, just an average everyday dog owner who has a controlled personal protection dog?  Just wondering.

I have a dog that was bought as a PPD.
He had been trained in the house against an intruder, vehicle protection and would do a house search upon returning home.
A situation arose that let me know that I had to get more control on the dog and we did attend Schutzhund Training. Some may disagree on whether that was the correct course to take or not. I'm still quite new to his aspect of dogs and it seemed at the time the way to go.

He recently passed his SchH1.
It was not an easy thing. He had/has trouble on the outs but he will out, not quickly and very vocally but will out.
The guy we trained with worked hard with us to get a good response on the outs but even the day of the trial the judges comment was "should out much faster".
He also has a habit of turning back on the trainer even with the sleeve in his mouth and when it started getting dark and we were still on the field training it seems that the dark presented another bit of an issue for him.
Two of the men that trained us cautioned me several times that he is a big powerful dog and even commented that if he turned on me I'd have to do something with him.
He has never shown even the least bit of issue with me or any of the animals in my home. My neighbors love him.
He is a gentleman as far as a dog goes but not the best in obedience on the field.

He is still an excellent protection/companion.
A gentleman comes about every six months to make sure he's on his game. The last time he came his last exercise was for me to have the dog at a back door. The trainer was to open the front door as if he was going to enter the home. He gave me the signal to send the dog and it was his intention to get the door shut in his face and make an "escape".

When I sent the dog he hit the front door so hard and fast that he actually ripped out the bottom trim on the floor and the door flew open. The dog cornered the and then nailed the trainer in the upper thigh through the scratch pants.

I think doing both for us was good, it helped me get a better understanding of who my dog is and helped him gain some respect for me. It definitly gave as a better bond.

Franki

Franki, lol good dog, that's a good PPD dog lol, but you are right on with regards to continue working him, you will create better bond with him and you will understand his capability better. Very smart thing to do in my opinion.

Regardless what you say Bob(and I agree with you), SchH IS a sport and that is a problem. 99.9% of SchH people train for the performance during  sport routine. Type of training that Bob is talking about, is rare. SchH dog who will protect for real is just a great dog who was put on a path of SchH and would protect in any case regardless, based on natural instincts, temperament, discrimination ability and courage. PP dog will benefit from all SchH training up to one year of age then  the path of training splits. There is no routine in real life protection. There is, as a rule,  not NECESSARY  development of courage through threat  in SchH training. It is usually all prey based development of routine and that includes even  the "courage test". SchH dog does not recognize threat during the trial, because there is none.  PP dog must recognize the threat  when presented to him, which induces in him fear or suspicion which he/she then overcomes  by courage through aggression. Threat, fear/suspicion, courage, aggression  sequence is not involved in SchH training and performance. You know that you have PP dog if :
1.he is capable to attack effectively on a  command a stranger, in strange place without any agitation and no gear.  
2.Attack effectively intruder (Same as above in point 1.) into the house  or other perimeter, without the command.
3.And truly great pp dog takes it personally if the bad guy tries to hurt him and that increases his anger in aggression.
4.PP dog must be socially resilient and neutral with neutral and friendly strangers. (crazy vicious dog can not protect you if he is locked up in a kennel.)
That is my acid test.  
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Schutzhund or any of the dog sports are comparable to Boxing, an art, a sport, developing mental and physical skills prior to experiences during trials. Now I don't want to take on anyone that does boxing however if I was being sent to Afghanistan in January I would be learning a more appropriate style of combat.
There are plenty of dogs in schutzhund that produce excellent K9's all over the world, it's about the breeder knowing the lines and charactistics, strengths and weakness's of the dogs.
This PPD should be taken with a pinch of salt, this Lassie stuff where the dog bites the hand with the weapon, and knows which assailant to attack is pie in the sky. A true PPD dog takes a good handler and hell of a lot of regular training. I train schutzhund at the weekends and use dogs all week as part of the tactical team I run (SWAT) which I have done for 22yrs now. I see dogs engage subjects almost weekly, sometimes several times a night, even with hours of training and experience with K9's and even schutzhund dogs they still make big mistakes. The super hero PPD with less regualar training and vitually zero real life experience, with a less experienced handler is close to lottery odds. One of the jobs I do is force entry into premises (raids) in the middle of the night, few dogs, even the drug dealers dogs truly stand there ground.
PPD dogs need careful selection and training, and the owners need more. Few people here would want to live with a true PPD dog but the idea that there is something out there to protect you, your family and property, is a very attractive one.