Work Potential in Puppies - Page 2

What you are describing again is the difference between picking a dog that ends up in the top and the basic ability or structure. Of course, you can pick a pup that providing as it grows up health clearance, dentition, ears, testicles, size are ok will end up as a dog that can be titled, shown and breed surveyed. Of course you can not pick the next VA or WUSC Champion. But for that matter, you could buy last years WUSV Champion and never be able to pass a regular SchH3 trial with that dog yourself. Because you lack the knowledge, you cannot handle or train that particular dog, you and the dog do not click as a team, etc. That is why a 12 month old prospect even may not turn out because the new owner just does not know how to make it work out. Put that prospect into the hands of someone who knows, meaning who can properly evaluate the dog at that age for himself, then can properly train the dog, has the proper training infrastructure behind him, has the drive and committment himself to work for that success, that person will make a go of it with such a dog. On the flipside of that is the army of SchH enthusiasts who have had 20-30 dogs over the years and never made a go of it with any of them. Surely, all these dogs were not bad... We know because we often go and buy them after a proper evaluation, fix the problems that have been worked into the dogs and make a go of it. Many a good dog never sees the day because of the owner, rarely because of the dogs ability/lack of ability - providing some of that was already there as a pup. A few years ago BSP Sieger male of one year and BSP Sieger female of another year were mated. High expectations for the litter, breeder could pick the best SchH handlers for his pups. The whole litter was cr*p. From the point of view of these high achieving handlers that is. SchH capable and the level they were hoping for were two different issues. So that shows that it is a matter of perspective. Preston, what you describe is seeing a connection with the pup. The fire in the eyes. That is what I saw in the photo of my personal dog Santos. Never saw him in person, but as soon as I saw the photo something clicked and I said that is my dog. He was 4 1/2months at the time. He turned out to be the perfect house dog for me. He is titled (SchH3 IPO3 FH1), decent results, not a points dog per se, but for me personally a very good dog. With room for some improvement, so at least we always have something to look forward to. But where I am at right now he is a good fit. Am already searching for the next dog because I know for a good fit it takes a while. Looking at females and their litters to see what they are producing and see where I may have a similar connection and am planning ahead. In about 4 years it will be time for another. wscott00, the ability to handle stress is partly genetic but hugely depends on proper socialization, which unfortunately is overlooked so often. How can a pup that knows only kennel and SchH field be exposed to enough stimuli and outside stresses to develop the nerve strentgh it needs? It cannot. Until a dog has the titles and stepped on the podium you are always talking about "potential". When someone inquires about a titled male and wants to go to Nationals, but the dog has not been trialed at the Nationals yet, I can still only talk about potential, even if the dog had finished all trials with a perfect 300. I do not know how often this person is willing to train with that dog, what their training infrastructure is once they have it, how well they can work a dog, etc. It will always be a dog with potential, never more.

The point i was trying to get across was that you can look at 10 8wk old puppies and say this one has more promise than the rest. which makes his odds... lets say 75-1 to scoreing 270 sch3. while you can look at 10, 12 month old dogs and say this one has more promise than the others. making his odds lets say 20-1. ive seen several really, really nice puppies that didnt make the cut. i agree that the ability to handle stress is gentic as well as a factor of socialization. but when you apply several layers of stress, 95% of the dogs socialization and training is out the window and the dogs natural ability to handle stress is exposed for what it is. Who's seen this before? its about 85+ degreed's out side, your 8 hrs from home, the dog is spending 80% of its time in a crate in the car or hotel. and in OB the dog stands instead of sits. the dog knows the sit in motion, but the stress got the better of him/her.

I also agree that you can see potential in a young pup. If the potential is there at eight weeks, it will be there at a year, it does not diminish unless there are significant social changes, and/or bad training. 90% of the time, there will be one of the two, and quite often both. Not many people can raise a pup to top potential, either out of lack of experience, and/or life style changes, etc., etc. There are many, many top potential pups ruined or significantly set back because of the owner's inablity to raise the pup correctly. If a top potential pup is raised properly and his/her owner can handle this pup at an older age, there is a good chance, with a little luck, he/she will become an excellent working dog. Remember a great dog is not trained, it is produced. There are two very important stages after the pup is produced; social and training. JMHO

"If a top potential pup is raised properly and his/her owner can handle this pup at an older age, there is a good chance, with a little luck, he/she will become an excellent working dog. Remember a great dog is not trained, it is produced. There are two very important stages after the pup is produced; social and training. JMHO" Excellent point.....

As far as picking a show prospect at 8 weeks: It is possible to do so with up to 90% accuracy if the breeder knows the developmental patterns and phenotype combinations that the sire and dam lines typically carry, and is a complete expert in correct structure, movement and overall confirmation. There are some puppies at 8 weeks that display their exact value as an adult confirmationwise and never go through any ackward stages (this is rare but it does happen and these are the super stars for breeding too). It is quite easy in most cases to pick the best puppy in the litter, but usually it is about a 50/50 wager for the puppy's value as an adult, except for that rare exception. I have seen a single puppy from litters that is just so outstanding in overall confirmation, balance, coordination and movement and typical to its parent or grandparent tpe that it is obvious it will mature into a beautiful dog like it's parent or grandparent did. As far as temperament, I mentioned the unique "eagle eye", "fire in the eye" "total predator" look that I saw in one litter of puppies over a period of over 35 years. When a puppy or adult dog has this quality of attitude it is overwhelmingly obvious and about as blatant as anything. It is rare but unmistakable when it occurs. I have seen it only once and both parents had it too. When one sees this in a GSD it is an impressive, amazing and beautiful sight to behold. Any puppy with rare quality this in my opinion can be trained to do anything, Sch., drug sniffings, personal protection dog, police dog, family pet (total versatility). A puppy with this rare type of temperament requires very consistent discipline and training. It's a clear ticket to a fabulous companion for anyone fortunate to acquire such an animal. For those that have never seen this look in a dog or puppy, they will not understand what I am referring to here. Those that have seen it or have had the great priviledge to acquire such an immensely valuable GSD know exactly what I am referring to. You can never forget it after seeing it. Fear was a pheneomena that never fit into my dog's head as a puppy or as an adult. Nothing threatened him ever. He lived to please us and was totally devoted. I'm certain that some breeders of GSDs here in and in Europe occasionally produce such dogs and they are always worth their weight in Gold. And it can happen in show or working lines too, but perhaps more frequently in working lines. This is an insider secret of the old breeders in Germany on how to select a great temperamented dog.

If you are lucky enough to produce a great puppy and find not only an experienced owner, but one that completely meshes with the pup, you also still need good club support and a good helper to help make it all work. Re: stress - remember that if a dog is really in tune with his handler, when the handler feels stress, the dog will react too. Some handlers can do the training and trialing at lower levels, but nerves take over at high levels of competition. I agree completely with the points DH made " the ability to handle stress is partly genetic but hugely depends on proper socialization, which unfortunately is overlooked so often. How can a pup that knows only kennel and SchH field be exposed to enough stimuli and outside stresses to develop the nerve strentgh it needs? It cannot" How many dogs that look great at their own club, ever leave the club for anything (other than maybe a trip to the vet)?? That's sad - not a great life for an intelligent animal, and certainly not a way to develop them to their full potential. I've often wondered why some people don't take the time to socialize their dogs outside of the training field. Is it a matter of not feeling it's needed (because to them the dog is just a tool for competition anyway), fear that socialization will take aggression out of the dog, or just plain laziness?

"There are many, many top potential pups ruined or significantly set back because of the owner's inablity to raise the pup correctly." (prok9s) Also, you can have the perfect pup, owner, club, and decoy, and the dog may later prove dysplastic to the extent that it intereferes with the work - - or any of a number of things that may show up later.

"its about 85+ degrees out side, your 8 hrs from home, the dog is spending 80% of its time in a crate in the car or hotel. " - Show me the handler that is totally unaffected by that? "and in OB the dog stands instead of sits. the dog knows the sit in motion, but the stress got the better of him/her." - Was it really the dog's stress that caused it to "disobey"? Or was it the dog's representation of the handler's stress level? My dog will disobey or goof off without much of a stress level ;o). But my stress certainly affects him. From my experience a dogs actions are usually a direct reaction or at least a reflection of the handler's action, mood, behaviour, stress, etc. I would always say that I can tell what mood I am in by looking at my animals. Dogs, horses. Being on a horse in a bad state of mind is a very bad idea. Training a dog in a bad state of mind will only lead to frustration. We communicate on levels we are often not even aware of, but our animals are very much aware. And we are not talking about picking the odd Super-Puppy. We were talking about picking a pup with good potential and the pup still displaying that potential at an older age, providing everything else went right too. Not the odd, rare A+ Superpup. 270 means achieving on average 90% in each category. Who here averaged 90% in all subjects in school? A good dog should be able to get a good result. In SchH that starts at 240. And how many have listened to a judges critique and had to hear comments like "handler error", "handler mistake", "could have been better if the handling..." etc. Preston, yes I agree that it is quite possible to pick a basically correct and very promising pup at puppy age. Ocassionally a really good pup escapes the breeders eye, but few experienced breeders keep back obviously inferior pups as their pick. They may be looking for something very specific in a pup, breeding is not just for the next generation after all. A breeder may be looking for a certain trait that he has been breeding for, or to introduce or get back into their program. That may not be the top choice for show and sport, but a sensible choice for a future breeding dog. The higher the expectation the stricter the requirements for what stays. What one breeder passes up another may find it a perfect fit for their needs and goals. At puppy age, or any age after that. It does not mean that the pups not picked by the breeder or a show or sport enthusiast are inferior. They do not meet their requirements thats all. Very few litters where everyone wants the same pup. "a great dog is not trained, it is produced" I disagree. For one, there are several incredibly gifted trainers out there that can make charcol sparkle like a diamond. IMO a great dog is produced by what she shape it into. A great dog left to its own devices will turn into nothing for any specific human purpose. What is done to and with a pup after "production" is complete, in other words after birth, is everything! Its a really easy way out for the owner to cast off responsibility if you go by "it was not trained that way, it came that way". Tell that to the people who have put in blood, sweat and tears to take their dog to the top, with them. No dog ever makes it to a podium alone, and without the dog, the handler would have nothing to work with either. You breed for potential, the handler develops the potential. Sensible breeding, careful puppy rearing and selection, proper socialization, feeding and physical conditioning, quality training, that makes for a good dog. And that is the basic platform a great dog would start from.

Can I second your post??

"270 means achieving on average 90% in each category. Who here averaged 90% in all subjects in school? A good dog should be able to get a good result. In SchH that starts at 240." With all due respect and not trying to sound like an Ass (however it may be too late) but i think its all relative. I would be dissapointed if i scored a 240, that is 80 across the board. So in tracking he must have lost every corner, had i high nose and maybe missed an article. In OB that would be problems w/ the dumbbell, poor heeling, a missed sit or down, and most likely bad fronts and finiished, basically the entire routine. as well as barely passed protection. while some things will happen, the dog will miss a corner or move on the stand. But a 240 is setting the bar a bit low. Ill compromise and say 265 would be a good score. I really dont think it takes an exceptional dog or training to get a 265 at a local trial. However i must agree that a lot has to do w/ handling, training a dog to do te routine has nothing to do w/ being able to handle a dog.