Just wondering what people think of table training - Page 2

Interesting read. A different view.

http://leerburg.com/tabletrain.htm

...and Ed Frawley is an idiot and never trained a dog in is life.  It is just as irresponsible for him to explain something that he has NO idea how to use as it is for someone to use a table without formally learning how to read dogs.  If you have a question about it's use whether it be for obedience, prey or defense, go seek out Gene England and ask him.  No one is better at using table methods than Gene.  Anything you will get from people here is third party and probably without  knowledge or merit.

Dude, You are exactly correct. I have trained with Gene and his method is very effective. Your post is spot on.

Agreed, this is why I asked Pierc where he/she saw table training.  If Pierc was in the right spot last weekend then he/she was seeing it from the Man himself.  Gene is the best, hands down. 

Ed Frawley compares table training to tying a dog out and beating it into avoidance.  I think we should give this brilliant method a try.......ON ED

"Ed Frawley compares table training to tying a dog out and beating it into avoidance ."

and some trainers do exactly that.

---Mary

Id like to se a video of table training done correctly & table training done incorrectly.  Anyone know of some on youetube as examples of right and wrong way to accomplish it?

I know Eurosport uses it often as you see it in many of the youtube videos for a "for sale" dog listing.

I just don't know what bad table training & good table training looks like.

ACE.... Here is where the problems begin. Not being sure what table training actual is or looks like. You do not see EUROSPORT use table training.That's because they don't use it. They do BOX training. Here's a link to EUROSPORT's page that shows BOX training videos.   (I don't agree totally with what is written @ table training on this page) 

http://www.eurosportk9.com/boxtraining.asp  


Here's a video of Dean Calderon doing TABLE training.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC99fB3CL6k    

I hope this helps.


Rick

What you are seeing in the video of Dean is what's commonly called a defense table, what you have not seen are the prey table or the obedience table.

The obedience table is "usually" used to teach a very definitive and consistent article indication and has nothing to do with fear.  It is a way to give almost instant response to proper/improper article position between the feet.  What is nice about this technique is the fact that the dog is off the ground at a very workable position for the handler.  It takes the pressure of the articles away from the positive, motivational track.  If used correctly, a very useful positive way to teach the articles.

The prey table is the precursor to the defense table (usually) and is lower to the ground, larger and circular.  It is made of wood (as is the defense table) and intended to be somewhat slippery so as to make the dog a little bit uncomfortable but also raises the dog's eye level almost even with the eye level of the helper.  It stabilizes the dog in a hold and bark position but allows for movement around it's perimeter once a grip is given.  In many cases the handler is actually up on the table with the dog so after a grip is given, the patient may "carry" it's prey to it's happy place.  If used correctly, a very useful positive way to work on barking/grips.

Just because the obedience table or prey table are used in training does not mean that the defense table is a must.  It is a tool, like any other and if used by an inexperienced helper, could absolutely be abused.  That is why you will (or shouldn't) (n)ever see a video of defense table work as most inexperienced people will misinterpret what they are seeing and invariably "experiment" on their own.  Kinda like the secrets of SEAL Team 6, you don't need to know.

ramgsd...Thanks for the links and clearing up my confusion.

Dude...Thanks for explaining the different types of tables.  You don't hear about the OB & Prey table as you only hear about the table used in defense. 

Dean's work in the video - The dog is in defense and not in prey correct?  Looking at the dog when Dean doesn't have the sleeve, the dog seems to be more concerned with the sleeve (@ the 2:15 mark).  Looking at the dog he keeps going back and forth with his attention on the sleeve and Dean but seems like the sleeve is more of the object correct?  Is he in prey or is it all still defense work?

What are the differences between table vs. box?

It is a tool, like any other and if used by an inexperienced helper, could absolutely be abused. That is why you will (or shouldn't) (n)ever see a video of defense table work as most inexperienced people will misinterpret what they are seeing and invariably "experiment" on their own

Very true, which is why I do not go into any details on this method of training.  I use it, I like it and I have very good results with it.  But I am not going to discuss it here in any detail.