"Delicate subject" - Page 2

Niesia,

I think a great, great many dogs that are imported are from breeders who put together two good dogs who were carefully matched--not just for this most recent generation, but for many previous generations.

Although there are some imported dogs with health and mental issues, it seems to me that more good dogs are imported than bad. If a dog is healthy, beautiful, a good worker, clear minded, sound of hips and elbows, titled, breed surveyed, and with a show rating... why would you think that dog was not created by someone who was doing a careful breeding and who knew what they were putting together when they mated the two parents? And it's not just one dog that I know that falls into this category, but handfuls of them.

As a single, minor example, I imported a dog last year from a kennel that I know has sent entire litters over here to be sold (although I learned that after I had bought the dog). The dog I got is V, KK1, Sch1. She's healthy, sane, clear minded, has good instincts, not dog aggressive, good in the house, good in the kennel, good in her crate. She walked off the plane like this. She came over with a shining coat, a good weight, good teeth, clean ears, trim toenails. She'd obviously lived in a house (she wouldn't even think of putting feet on the furniture for the first while she was here). She was a great mom and her first litter produced puppies that are doing herding, SAR, service dog work, agility, and schutzhund/ppd work. She is a product of a careful breeding that seems to have produced exactly what her breeders wanted and I think I am lucky to have gotten her.

Can you give me some examples of some "carelessly bred" imports?

Good point!  It's much easier to find quality dogs in Europe than it is here. 

Quality of litter?  Condition of dogs overseas?*  Going overseas to meet the sire and dam?  You keep moving the goalposts from your original question.

Also, I don't see any difference between selling and shipping an entire litter to an overseas individual and sending that person a pregnant bitch, which is something that occurs all the time without anyone batting an eye.

As to whether there are people who have good knowledge of the kennels from whom they import dogs, of course there are some.  And those people usually are transacting with the better kennels overseas, because why would a successful German breeder of good reputation wish to associate with an idiot? 

*  One thing I have heard repeatedly over the years is that most German breeders don't mollycoddle their pups the way a lot of Americans do.  That means they are born in a puppy house, they are raised in the puppy house, and for the most part they stay in the puppy house when they aren't outside in the puppy yard.  This applies regardless of the weather - if it's cold, the breeder just tosses in more hay for them to snuggle in.  

And FWIW, I've noticed that pups raised this way tend much more to be "all-weather dogs" capable of being outside in just about all conditions.  I once had a GSD who would look at me like I was nuts if I asked whether he wanted to come in when it was 0 degrees Fahrenheit outside - I made him come in at sunset, but that was more so that the neighbors wouldn't have to listen to him bark at night than it was over any concern about his health.   He was born in this country, but raised the way pups are raised in Germany.  He had a coat like a bear, would pack on 5-6 lbs. in the fall to get ready for winter that he then ran off every spring, and the only concession he made to the cold was to curl his tail over his nose when he napped on the sidewalk by the gate.

I presently have an import male and an import female who also don't care what the weather is.  Out at dawn and in at dusk, rain, sleet, snow or shine, they are happy to be out in the yard regardless.  The male will be 5 years old next month and has thrown up exactly once in his life, when he was teething and shredded and ate most of a soft Nylabone.  The female is just as healthy.  And they were both raised the old-fashioned way in a puppy house.

 Quote: And do you believe that it’s not business but responsible breeding to better the breed – because somebody in USA wants to have “Import from Germany”?

It is business. Almost anyone in this country would choose a pup bred over there than one here. I don't see a lot of bettering the breed. I see good dogs, but very rarely are they better than their parents. If you don't think so, then quote some examples. Breeding is hard enough without people throwing in their 2 cents about what someone else is doing.

"It is business."

Yes it is.  And we should hope that it is a successful one too, at least for the best breeders, because it takes a lot of breeding to produce the few great dogs who are both better than their parents and who can pass on their superior traits to their offspring.  And unless a breeder is independently wealthy, he most likely can't afford to lose money year after year on his operation.  

A friend of mine who's a Judge in Nigeria got a pup from "carlzipca" in South Africa, though the breeders are yet to get registration details or even present pictures of the dog(now adult), of which this respected Judge had asked me to forward to the breeder in S.A., the said dog is in the best of condition comparable to anywhere in the world: the family loves the dog and do everything withing their reach to keep the do healthy and happy. So any one shouldn't think that just because you dont know where your pup or litter is headed, then the buyers are irresponsible. I strongly believed 60% of puppies imported are not done by the direct buyer themselves. NigerDeltaMann.

Having bought dogs from Europe and US in the last 5 months...I'll venture to say you can find what you want right here if you do your homework, when it comes to a puppy. As far as the bloodline issue, I can't see where there is a difference. Buying an already trained, titled, bred and xrayed dog is quite harder. Europe will always beat us on that front!

 I think this has strayed a bit from the original question. The question was could you, personally, as a breeder ship an entire litter off to another country and not worry about what happens to them.

I answered NO, of course! But that doesn't mean that there aren't circumstances where it's not only ok, but responsible as well. To say I personally couldn't do it and not worry about them is nowhere near the same thing as saying I condemn people importing and exporting entire litters.

I would buy a whole import litter, see how they turn out after a few months, keep what I want and sell the rest to good homes. How is that worse than any other way of selling puppies? 

There are lots of variables and certainly as many scenarios as there are stars in the sky, so throwing words like "puppymill" around are IMO, not called for. You lose control ANY time you sell a dog. For me, that's the hardest part, but until my bitch starts having one pup at a time, that's life. 

 On a side note, Jeff, I don't think that it's so rare to find people genuinely trying to better the breed. While I of course love all my dogs and think they're the best <grin>, I have to say that I have produced a couple dogs that, IMO, are a little better than their parents, or maybe a better way to say it would be they are a combination of the "best of their parents." They are young yet (not quite 2), but I couldn't be happier and there are enough of them that it's not a fluke. Finding a dog, any dog, who can really produce better than themselves (or even as good!) is a rare treat and that dog should be cherished.  Having said that, I agree that most are just paper matches with probable good intentions but not a lot of practical knowledge of how the real things add up together. 

And yes, it's a business, but why can't it be an ethical business? I think it can be. I know of no other better way to be successful in a business than to provide a superior product, and superior service, at a competitive price. 

If it wasn't for the breeders in Europe then we wouldn't have the quality dogs we have...On the whole the breedings done in Europe are from better stock then we have here in the U.S....therefore people still buy from them...
Also most of the breeders aren't a big operation...they are very small scale...Yes...There are some larger scale breeders in Europe and certainly they do if for a living...but they also have high quality dogs and is eveident in the results from the Higher Level Trials and their wins...BSP...WUSV....etc...and also the litters they're produced...
In the U.S. we DO now have more and better quality dogs...Only because we've imported many dogs from Europe...and YES...our breeding knowledge has gotten better and better...but we are still many years away from catching up to the Originators of the breed...If you'd take the time to talk to some of the breeders in Europe you'd know just how much knowledge of the breed they have...
You see...It's not only seeing and knowing the pedigrees of the dogs we're breeding but also knowing the bloodlines back for generations and knowing what they produce and what combinations add what to the breeding...

~Bob~