Aggression or dominance??? - Page 2

Level of comfort..............

The thing to keep in mind is it's does not matter
where you learn the information......as long as it
is correct and fundamentally sound...

Having said that, understand that Prince is a GSD.
From a proud bloodline of dogs that has been
handed down from generation to generation.
And there are GSD trainers that are also an extension
of this legacy. People who, from generation to generation
gave their children knowledge of this wonderful breed.
If you see where I am going with this, ..it is a wake up call
to seek out such people for most of the good information
on your dog if it is a GSD like Ruger1's Prince.

An alpha dog will behave in a very predictable manner and
it is best if you know what it is....Be sure to see Bart Bellon
clinics and Bernard Flinks.

Some dogs, especially when they are young,  redirect, it's a fact of life.  Sometimes they're testing the waters, sometimes they just loose their little minds when over stimulated, sometimes they have been spoiled, the list goes on.  It's  really no big deal, if you know what you're doing, you just handle it  and nip it in the bud with well timed, firm corrections. 

The problems occur when these dogs are  owned by people who don't know what to do.  If the owner freezes/backs down,  the redirecting  will continue and escalate because the  dog hasn't been taught he can't do that.  If  the owner has bad timing then  the dog has no idea he is being corrected for redirecting, becomes frustrated and escalates his aggression. 

 

very good point Sue....

If you buy a dog with some mota espeacally,
it is natural to feel at a lose at first. But that dog
and you will acclimate in time. Once you acclimate
to dogs with spirit you will not be satisfied with
anything else......Quarter horses to.

I had a dog that would show handler aggression this way. 

In my eyes it is dominance directed aggression. However, the WD did not commit into a full bite while coming up the leash. Yes the WD ripped the shirt and did some bruising, but nothing else. True aggression will display a bite that is meant to kill. Those bites were meant to dominate and let Cesar know that the WD disagrees with the leash, the corrections and Cesar leading him. I respect Cesar for recognizing this and this is also why he stated that he would not kill the other dog but roll him as sign of the WD dominance. But WD or not, this is basic primal canine behavior.
The leash and the person at the end of it are contributing factors to having escalating behaviors like this. When you look at the beginning of the video Cesar is correcting the WD to walk next to him. This requires submission to the leash on the dogs part. Didnt work, look at the WDs body language...high tail, ears partial back, getting hunched. One could tell that the WD was ready to go off. In a pack situation off lead next would be freezing up into a stance, showing teeth, giving the looks from underneath. If the other party doesnt back off by now, it will escalate into kicking ass.

My youngster is like that. Hard dominant dog. I had been told by the breeder that he is a serious puppy. I did a ton of socializing with him. Then at 7 months I had to pull him out of class as he got dominant agressive towards other dogs when they came around me. Had to take corrections to a whole new level and nothing that an average pet owner needs to witness. We have a great relationship with each other built upon trust and respect. He requires a strong hand with leadership, but not a higher dominating beeing for the wrong reasons. His dominant agression at home is against my nervous 5y neutered male. Every so often they get into each other for various reasons related to dominance. They are at each others throat, sounding like they want to kill each other, but only hair is flying, no blood, no true bites. With the correction, my youngster redirects towards me. He also shows tendencies coming up the leash in training, but he never bit me in a way that it broke skin (well on the fingers). Do I let him know that this is unacceptable, yes, I do. But with a true dominant and hard dog those power challanges will always be there. The part on me to make it functional is how to work with the dog, and not how to work against it.

          This thread proved to be very interesting IMO. Thanks for all the postings....



      Daryl,,,, Aggression is the expression....Domination is a type of motivation....Thanks, that makes it clear...


       Max,,,, Nice post, I am going to think on that a bit...Yes, I am planning on going to a Bernard Flinks clinic as a spectator in the spring.....: )

        Sue and Elkoorr,,,, Good information...: )



              Deanna...: )

Thanks for the interesting read you guys.

Is is possible to alter the basic primal canine behavior (as described by Elkoorr)?  I was hoping that the answer would be yes but as you (Elkoor) had to pull your pup out from socializing classes due to his dominant aggression to other dogs make me think that there are limitations to what I understand socializing with other dogs are about.  Would it be fair to say then, to teach the dog to ignore other dogs is more probable?

Thats a good question, poseidon, and I often pounder my head over it. In case of my dog I think if you take me as handler out of the equation, he would be able to be a bit more tolerant towards other dogs. However, he still would be dominating to those dogs just with lesser aggression. I feel, unless you physically beat it out of a dogs head and break its spirit,  true dominance will always be there.

Pretty much all the dogs Cesar works with are not true dominant dogs. They just took that role because of lack of leadership. Thats why it always looks so easy. The wolfdog has a more true dominance. To bad the video didnt show any work with other dogs besides the one. Or any off leash work. I dont think its a fix for the owners at all like they expressed. The wolf dog will prevail in this case IMHO. Too sad.

To your question. I think it would be more likely to teach ignoring other dogs in specific situations. In my case the long down. He goes into a type of avoidance while the other dogs is working. I trained that behavior while correcting him every time he focused in on the other dog. He is allowed to look at me, look away or glimpse towards the other dog. But any focusing will not be tolerated. You have to be good in reading body language.

 I would say that yes you can train a dog to ignore other dogs.  My female  gsd was very dog aggressive she was trained to ignore othe dogs through obedience.  If she lunged or over focused on another dog she was corrected for it, eventually she listened when I said leave it and would.

Interesting story, My male gsd came to me at 7 mos of age a complete nerve bag, afraid of everything.  I sarted socializing the shit out of him because he obviously never saw the outside of his kennel.  I was working with him in obedience and was having some trouble with focus and shut down at trials, he would work beautifully in training room or at home or the park but at a trial he would fall apart.  So I consulted a schutzhund trainer in my area very well known national level competitor.  I worked with him for the better part of 2 months.  When the trainer corrected him on a prong collar my dog went up the leash at him, HE NEVER went up the leash at me even with a correction  on the prong or if I scruffed him.  I would have thought that this was perhaps driven by fear not sure.  My dog even though he continues to be a nerve bag in certain situations does demonstrate some dominant behaviors at home with my other dogs, but not to the point where a look from me and he doesn't back off.

Both of my dogs are trained off leash to stay with me and ignore other dogs.  I can take them to a park or beach to play and they will not go off to chase another dog or see another person.  They stay with me and want to play ball or whatever, but they don't leave me.  If another dog approaches I tell them leave it and head off in the opposite direction.

But I would agree with Elkoorr sumation of the wolf dog that is not a domanince issues easily fixed.