OT: Wolf Watch "Part II"

This is a placeholder text
Group text

by CrysBuck25 on 24 October 2010 - 05:10

I have always admired the beauty of the wolf, but I do not see them as noble. Nobility has no place in their world, never has and never will.

As for how to deal with the problem of wolf depredation on sheep and cattle in Montana and other states, there are not that many options. One option would be to build a major fence, at least six feet high, buried in the ground at least twelve inches, very well reinforced, and checked regularly to be sure there are no holes. Totally impractical, very expensive, and not likely to be effective. Another option might be to have your own pack with the sheep or cattle, Livestock Guardian dogs, such as Great Pyrenees or similar. But you know what they do with wolves that approach their animals? They will kill them if necessary.

Another option is for the rancher to sit out in his pastures, with a rifle across his lap, and shoot any wolf that comes into the pasture, near his animals.

Yet another option would be for the rancher to just realize that he is only a human and as such, not deserving of a business, of protecting his territory, of providing for his family. He should, perhaps, turn that rifle on himself and reduce the human population by one...That seems to be the attitude of Mr. Moons, which I do not agree with. I don't take more than my share, but I feel that I do have a share. I will take what is mine, and I will protect what is mine, like all creatures on this earth do. I will not feel guilty because mankind exists and sometimes, some take more than they should. No other species on this earth feels guilty because it exists.

Anyway, I believe I'm getting more wound up right now than I should...I probably should delete this and not even post it. But for some reason, I'm submitting this post. Good night all, take care, and please carry on with this discussion.

It seems pretty clear that there are two very different schools of thought with regard to the wolves. I don't imagine that either side will ever see the other's viewpoint; such is not the nature of the human being. We believe that our views are the only right ones, and this attitude has been the basis of so many conflicts and even wars over the centuries.

Crys

by Two Moons on 24 October 2010 - 17:10

Crys, Over population of the Earth is a serious problem, and the powers that be are already dealing with the issue, you just don't see it for what it is. The mass removal of a species. It's not a recent concept, only the numbers have changed. The demands have out grown the resources. daryl, If there is enough wilderness that it can sustain itself, then when an animal is killed outside this wilderness the whole species doesn't risk extinction. Given enough space without the interference of man nature will do just fine. Then when ranchers catch a predator in the act they kill it, and the animals once again learn man means death. But not from a helicopter and not the whole species, just the individual at the site of the offense. Man has always lost his animals to predators, and predators have always been killed by man doing it. There needs to be a clear and defined line between wilderness and development. In time this will be learned. What you have now is day one of school, these animals have just been reintroduced into this new and different habitat from what they new in the wilderness where they came from many miles away. Your right a non native species, more of mans interference with nature. This kind of evolution takes time to balance out naturally. So too humans have not had these predators in the better part of 200 years to cope with. There is a certain give and take that has been forgotten. Right now there is not enough wilderness, there are no clear lines of separation, territories overlap, and the whole situation is a political one with few using any real common sense. The reality is man cannot undo what he has done, there will never be enough wilderness for the great predators, there will never again be the great plains of the Buffalo and the Native American. Only parks and reservations, zoos if you will, for man and beast. Reguardless our ideas and opinions, it's all in the court system now isn't it. In the hands of Lawyers and Polititions who's only vested interest is the money they will make, or the votes they can win.

by blair built gsd on 24 October 2010 - 17:10

Moons that is the sad part now like you said its left to the lawyers and polititions to come up with a solution. We all no how well they do when speeking for the rest of us. A big problem is the old ranchers out there who when they started didnt have to worry about any real predators and there livestock. Then they put the wolfs back in the park and before the first anything was hurt by them all the ranchers had made there minds up to shoot them on site. Now the wolfs have given them a reason so they feel like it should be open season on them. We have to change there mind set if we want them to act rite and good luck changing anyones mind thats part of the ww2 generation. I hate to say it but are best chance mite be for the wolfs to out last the rest of them.

by darylehret on 24 October 2010 - 20:10

This is not an isolated incident, and ranchers weren't "looking for a reason". Wolves have always been predators, naturally born to kill. Where there's prey, there's reason.

There are incredible losses to livestock, pets, and other wildlife species each and every single year. This is not new. These losses matter to the residents affected, as well they should. Who are you to criticize? What's your experience, in what positive way have wolves affected your life?

by Keith Grossman on 24 October 2010 - 23:10

"...such is not the nature of the human being. We believe that our views are the only right ones..."

Pretty much what moons is saying as well although you're limiting your focus only to people's interactions with each other whereas he is considering the broader issue of our interactions with the world around us.

"What's your experience, in what positive way have wolves affected your life?"

Is that the litmus test now for which species survive?

"In God's haste he made the fly...and then forgot to tell us why." -- Ogden Nash

by CrysBuck25 on 25 October 2010 - 00:10

Yes, Moons, I know that the vaunted "powers that be" are dealing with the issues at hand with the "overpopulation" problem on this earth. Those powers that be are very powerful, very wealthy people, people for whom control of everything, everywhere is paramount, and they will stop at nothing to achieve that goal. By some estimates, the planned reduction of the human population is 90%; only the elites and some slaves will remain to serve them. They can't be expected to dirty their own hands to provide for themselves. It is a shame that we no longer find the idea of such behavior horrifying, and in fact, it attests to the level of desensitization that has taken place. Not too many years ago, men with courage fought to protect their loved ones; now they just lay down and bow to the great scholars who know better than they do.

These are the same powers that be that are behind the AR movement, and dozens of others. It is an ongoing process. One cannot reduce the population rapidly without causing a massive rebellion that could end the big plans for good, so instead we con the fools into believing that we know what is best for them. Like sheep to slaughter, the peoples of the world bow down before these people, believing them to be so knowledgeable and understanding, when in fact, it is greed of the most evil magnitude that is behind it, not intelligence or altruism. Their concerns are not for the planet; more for having everything there is to have, and no potential competition for it.

If you can make people feel guilty for living, so much the better. It is those who feel they have the right to play God with the rest of us who should be executed for their crimes against humanity; shame on them.

I guess it all boils down to whether you believe there is a God, or not...That is not a discussion for this forum, though it is a valid one. Those who believe in God believe that He will take care of their needs, and those who do not believe just think that essentially we are on a death spiral, that humanity is going the way of the dinosaur. Believe what you will, I suppose, but as for the wolf, I think that a few are fine. Too many feral dogs in an area get shot. I guess it goes for the wolf, too.

Personally, I'd kill any that attacked my livestock, and leave alone those that did not. The wolf has the right to survive, and so do I.

Crys

by darylehret on 25 October 2010 - 02:10

And so, the less vigilant, the weak, and the complacent shall suffer, because the wolf will always choose the easiest prey. Except those under the protection of their 'shepherd'.

What I'd like to know, is more of the actual details about the story above, regarding the measures that were taken with the dogs and herders, and how they were proved 'innefective'.

What about the species that aren't directly able to be protected by humans? Will the elk dig up their latent instincts during calving season and learn better tactics to ward off attacks as their newborn touch ground?

As a side note, bear numbers this year have very dramatically risen, and no doubt due in part to the wolf laying it's waste. Bear attacks are of course becoming more frequent also.

by Two Moons on 25 October 2010 - 03:10

Everything eats something else, everything feeds on something. This is natural law. We haven't actually been here all that long, perhaps we were not meant to stay. If we do intend to stay we better begin to understand how it all works together as one, everything is connected. Men once knew these things, other men forced them to forget. Removed them and their cultures from our world. Now we lack that knowledge and experience, and we no longer have the moral conviction of our ancestors about the natural world. Man now feeds on man, the problem is purely a human one. I personally think we're screwed.

by darylehret on 25 October 2010 - 05:10

Philosophy has little to do with knowledge and experience, and the ideologies we create provide little more than a pretense for the true underlying forces of direct change. Drives like hunger... or lust. The acting forces (or aggressors) will always have the greatest advantage, for having taken the initiative. Some would say that the defenders who lacked the foresight to see it's imminent arrival and plan for their defense are deserving of their fate. Whatever personal interpretation you find for meaning for their lack of persevereance is really insignificant. Stay vigilant and adapt, or FAIL. That is also nature's law, and men cannot seperate themselves from it.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"~Christopher Hitchens

by Bob McKown on 25 October 2010 - 11:10

Well since were throwing out quotes:

"To chase human nobility is a fools errand"

Sarek of Vulcan

Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top

OT: Wolf Watch "Part II" - Page 2

Pedigree Database