Trainers and helpers opinion

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by malshep on 19 September 2010 - 23:09

Hi Ibrahim, I am not a trainer or a helper, but I do like your dog. I did like how he held his down in the last video until told to do something else. I am also in agreement that he is too young to be doing muzzle work . I am also in agreement check out someone else to help you train your dog. Go and watch how they are training other dogs.
That is what I did before I chose who I have.
Always,
Cee

by GSDfan on 19 September 2010 - 23:09

And too early to be mixing obedience with bitework...and especially too early to be mixing in aggitation during bitework OB.

You don't like the results because the dog is confused, they are doing too much for the dog to learn things clearly and gain confidence in his work...you can't teach power and control at the same time and expect them to progress very quickly.

Frankly I'm surprised the dog is doing as well as he is inspite of the crappy training. Don't get me wrong...his work doesn't look good but I'd expect the average dog to look worse.

by sueincc on 19 September 2010 - 23:09

Ibrahim: Please realize I know nothing of what kind of training they are doing with your dog, so all I can do is relate it to how I would see it if this were a year old dog training for schutzhund, so I could be wrong, but here is my take on what I am seeing (for what it's worth, or not):

To me, the dog is perhaps starting to go into avoidance caused by not knowing what the hell he is supposed to be doing. His grips appear to be tentative and frontal, in the 3rd video he goes off sniffing, tries to climb on his handler, refuses to engage the first time. Based on what I know, this is caused by bad handling and bad helper work, on a dog way too young for what they are doing with him.

If I am right, they could ruin your dog if they continue the way they are going. If I am wrong, then I am just talking out of my ass!!!

by VonIsengard on 19 September 2010 - 23:09

To me the dog is showing some avoidance of the handler and the decoy, somewhat submissive to the handler, the jumping up appeared nervous. Not what I would deem "character building". The dog is way too inexperienced for muzzle work. At least you didn't pay a ton of money, this is a sort of "get what you pay for" situation.

Ibrahim, I think you already made up your mind before posting this, if you were happy with the training you wouldn't have been unsure. Bring your dog home and keep looking for a trainer you are confident in.

by GSDfan on 19 September 2010 - 23:09

"To me the dog is showing some avoidance of the handler and the decoy, somewhat submissive to the handler, the jumping up appeared nervous."

I believe this behavior the dog is displaying is confusion plain and simple...too much too early!

But agreed, regardless of the source of the submissive behavior... this is not character building...or at the very least not providing a good learning environment or state of mind for the dog. Any confidence the dog does gain with this training will be soley with repitition...certainly not from the skill of the decoy or from the method of training.

Ibrahim...here is a video of my dog on a down stay with aggitation...like your decoy was attempting. This wasn't done until the dog was very experienced in bitework...his work was strong and confident in bitework and his OB (outside bitework) was very clear to him. I would never consider doing this in the early stages of bitework training. And the decoy didn't start with repeated whip cracks while he was facing the dog...the level of distraction and pressure applied was gradual.

by VonIsengard on 19 September 2010 - 23:09

Oh, absolutely! Confusion often leads to stress and avoidance.

Good example with the video. A fine example of control with confidence and alertness.

With Ibrahim's dog, even when the handler is gesturing him to engage, is still unsure and even glances away from both of them, and needs some urging to leave the down and engage. "Too much too early" exactly rigtht GSDfan!

by GSDfan on 20 September 2010 - 10:09

"Confusion often leads to stress and avoidance."

Absolutely...just wanted to make it clear it wasn't a dig on the dog itself but the affects of the training or lack there of.

by Phil Behun on 20 September 2010 - 15:09

That was funny stuff,,,,,,and people wonder why I get aggravated when I see fraud in the dog training world.

by Ibrahim on 20 September 2010 - 16:09

Thank you all for the valuable evaluation of Orwell's poor "training" and "handling", yes I knew the training is not gcorrect at all but wanted to make sure plus I didn't know technically what is wrong, now it is crystal clear. I took Orwell back, I can not take the money back though. Here we do not have many trainers and decoys to choose from, sorry for using the word trainer and decoy which they don't deserve really. I wish we had better ones. I decided not to train him further as good training is not available here. I will love him and build up his confidence myself as much as I can. Thanks a lot again to all who replied, I admire and respect all of you for your knowledge, experience and sincere advice. Ibrahim

by GSDPACK on 20 September 2010 - 18:09

ibrahim,

it is hard to be able to bring a dog to his/her potencial when you dont have the knowlege and experience and nobody there to work with.
Must be frustrating. You will do great by your dog.
I am not going to comment on the videos...
Pack

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