Line Breeding, is this a bad mix? - Page 2

Prager,

I never saw your post and I have been watching this one pretty steady.  I think only entire threads are ever deleted.  I would certainly not delet your post at all.  Maybe it just didn't post.....internet gremlins at work??????

Vickie
PowerHaus

 Okay, I finally took the puppy back! *sigh of relief* ~ I was sad at the same time because I felt bad...  

The breeder was completely understanding though and *wished* me luck in finding Samson a suitable mate... 

I had called the original breeder that I purchased Samson from, wish I would have called him first!  Anyway, in his opinion it would have been a bad mix.  I read him some of the names off of the puppy's pedigree and two of the dogs on the dad's side had indicated that it was from "Live Oak Kennels", he said they are not known for producing good dogs and they are simply breeding farms... He indicated that he had a 14 month old female that he thought he wouldn't mind breeding to Samson...  He said that Samson comes from a good back ground and he wouldn't see any problems... 

I downloaded the forms to obtain the elbow and hip certification from the OFA website and I saw that you could search for other dogs information within...  So I looked up Samson's family tree...  

His dad is UHLAN VOM LEERBURG, and it has his hips as good and his elbows as normal, his mom Liaka Von Uber Land (DL89885203), does not pull up...  So I am guessing that she was not certified....  Her father though is Xuck von der Friesenklippe (DL86636601) and I did not locate any information for his records either...  I thought that was odd because on this site it indicates that he has SCHH3...  Based on this I would think his hips/elbows would be certified...  Maybe that's not a requirement (I'm learning)...  His mom, Liaka Von Uber Land's mom LADY HAWK VOM DOPPEL-DEHAUS (DL76992002) pulls up with good hips and normal elbows.  

Anyway, I've pulled up everyone in his family tree and this one CRIS VOM FORSTHAUS HATTLICH (DL65652601) is listed with fair hips...  Almost all that I can pull up either show Normal or Good but a few do show fair...  I did not come across any that indicated that they had bad hips or elbows, would that show up?  

From the pictures on this site, Samson looks mostly like SG Mink vom Haus Wittfeld (SZ/1569341) from the pictures that are available anyway!  

Here is a video of him jumping the fence:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtYz7EHpvxc&NR=1

**Before you say anything bad...  He kept jumping the fence and we wanted to see how he was doing it...  So the kids and I got on the other side and coached him into doing it just so we could see and try to stop him...  Anyway, because of this he ended up becoming a house dog! LOL  He would jump the fence and the dog catchers would try to come pick him up and he would jump back into the yard.  We had gotten into trouble for that one...  

Anyway, I really enjoy everyone's suggestions/feedback and I will take everything into consideration before breeding or buying another puppy.  Samson is kinda fat now, he typically doesn't get a lot of exercise and he isn't very good on the leash!  He leads you rather than you leading him!  So I will get off of her and work with him some more!  

Again, you guys have been very helpful!  I will continue my research!  My primary goal was to get a puppy out of him before he got too old, but I guess male dogs like human men can reproduce a lot longer than women so I shouldn't rush into anything.   

Oh and one thing to Bob ~ I appreciate your feedback, but I do have one objection...  I may not know a whole lot about GSD's or dogs in particular for that matter, but I do know Samson has a damn good temperament.  He is loyal, friendly and he has NEVER EVER shown any signs of unprovoked aggressive behavior.  He will bark a sharp bark with som

Spirit,

Xuck is not coming up on OFA's website because he has a German A stamp (at least according to his pedigree on PDB).  He shows an "a1" which is normal or good hips.

RFS

edit

If I am remembering correctly, when you send in paperwork for OFA certification, you can choose to not have any results made public if the hips are not passing.

OFA won't usually show the dogs with bad hips because the owners can CHOOSE to not have that information published.  Anyway, just because Samson has a good temperament doesn't mean he is breed worthy.  And his breeders ethics also are poor as he would like to breed to your dog as well when he has no OFA or titles of any type.

Vickie
PowerHaus

Spirit:

              Loyalty and friendly is good, but it,s not a test of temperament... But at least you have shown a willingness to learn. When taking critique on your own dogs you will learn to have a thick skin and not to get so defensive. 

your dog is still young enough to get a "BH"

we have a dog in our club that is 7 and is working on her SchH2. the dog changed hands about a year ago and the new owner is working her. slow and steady progress and for these two its more for the teamwork bond and social interactions then competition. Applause to them!

Spirit,
I usually do not get involved in threads like that and have not even looked at your dog's pedigree but I have a question out of curiosity: Why do you feel compelled to have a puppy out of your male? Yes, I am sure you love him and he is your best friend, but is that enough to breed him?
When special dogs come into our lives, we want to embrace them and never let them go. When they grow old and pass, it nearly kills us and they take a part of us with them. At the same time, it is not fair to their memory and a new dog to try to replace them. Each dogs is unique and has his or her own personality, like any living being.
My best friend has been dead for 9 years now and I still miss her terribly. She was 11 times SchH3, KKL1 and V-rated. I have trialed her in Schutzhund and AKC obedience and I have bred her couple of times to nice V- and VA-rated dogs. In retrospect, I should not have because she had produced some problems like soft ears in one litter, weak temperament in another and a couple of her puppies had moderate HD (even though she too had great hips and all of her ancestors did as well). Of course, if I had known ahead of time I would not have done these litters but what I am trying to emphasize is that you can run into problems even with dogs who have passed breeding requirements and suiability tests. My girl did not leave a son or daughter worthy of herself and the puppies all went to good pet homes because I made sure they were taken care of. I moved on and found differents dogs which we held in high esteem even though they could never replace her which is just fine, as I do not mind keeping her memory clear and untarnished.
When you visit animal shelters or rescues, you are going to be overwhelmed with sadness for all these poor (purebred) dogs who were discarded and dumped by their owners. Nowhere else in the industrial world will you see so many stagering numbers of pets being on deathrow (I am originally from Germany and there, dogs are not killed like here simply for their sheer numbers). Now, if you are saying that your one litter would not contribute to this problem, you just might be wrong. And here is why: Your dog could have a huge litter of 10 puppies. You can't keep them all simply because they would overwhelm you in just a couple of months. Trying to find them all good homes might take you a long time and will require them to be separated (do you have kennels to do so?). If you have to hurry them out the door, you surely will cut corners in your requirements and send them home with people who do not value them the way you would. It is almost a given that some will end up being dumped. Are you prepared to take them back? And even if you can provide them all with the greatest homes, what if you have medical emergencies and have to rush them or the mother to the vet? Are you financially prepared for that? Lots of things can go wrong when breeding dogs and everything should be planned for. Bringing dogs into this world is a huge responsibility and should never be taken lightly. A litter like yours would neither appeal to show people nor to working homes as the parents did not excel in either. Basic health testing is always the most important thing before breeding, but it involves so much more knowledge in the breed, different bloodlines and genetics. Lack thereof and no breeding regulations by governing organizations, plus plain ignorance of dog owners are the main reasons why the pet overpopulation in this country is soaring.
Again, please do not take that as criticism and negativity. I have not even looked at your dog's pedigree at all. More than 20 years ago, I was in the same situation. I had bought two dogs (male and female) from wellknown breeders in Germany directly. Neither one were of breeding quality. The female had severe HD and died of canine leukemia at a young age and the male was a long stockcoat, beautiful and healthy, but not within the standard back

Sorry, my post was cut off - too long!!

The female had severe HD and died of canine leukemia at a young age and the male was a long stockcoat, beautiful and healthy, but not within the standard back then. None were ever bred because I started educating myself (mostly overseas). The next dog I purchased was a titled female (my above mentioned best friend) which I trialed and competed with before breeding her with not so good results. I started doing more research and bought other dogs which we had more success with and now have a line of homebred dogs due to that. Breeding is continuing research and you will never cease to learn.
You are doing everything right so far and I want to wish you luck and wisdom.
Best regards,
Chris

Silbersee, EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!!!