I need your opinion on this.... - Page 2

Grrr, my post got cut off:
Continued

 This translates directly to the dog and the dog usually gets amped from the start. Can two decoys is a dark, noisy room fighting a dog in a muzzle stress the dog, you bet they can. If the handler rushes in and gets shot; is he stressed, you bet he is. Will some dogs have a hard time you bet they will. Do the dogs and handlers learn form this type of training? Oh you bet they do. So can we run these dogs if we wanted too, sure we could. Do we run our dogs in training, no we don't. The training builds on prior training and as soon as we see an issue we take a step back to correct it. We have some excellent dogs and excellent, hard working handlers who strive to bring out the best in their dogs. If you ask any of our handlers they can easily list the strengths and weaknesses of their dogs. We don't sugar coat anything with each other, quiet the opposite. We all know where we stand. I have an excellent dog, but he has some issues, no dog is perfect.

So, in nutshell Snajper....my answer is yes.

Jim

Very well explained, Jim.

Good topic, snaj!

Well...

The answer is - mostly yes. 99% of the time 99% of the dogs can be run off the field. The questions are -what are the circumstances and who is doing the dog running, what are they doing and why would they do it?

Somebody in "full gear" that punches the dog repeatedly hard between the eyes while he is hanging onto the sleeve or bitinga bitesuit, yes, the dog will eventualy quit, 99.9% of them will eventualy. Of course that fight is not fair at all and why would one do that?

There is a small percenage, 0.1% of dogs outthere that will not quit no matter what, no matter who and no matter where. Dogs like that are extremely rare. almost unheard of and in my opinion are not right in the head and not balanced.

A small percentage of dogs, say 2% to 3% will give all they got before being run off the field, those are the toughest and the best, like slamdunc mentioned but eventualy after a protracted, long,ugly fight they'l realize this foe is more than I can handle and quit. Most excellent dogs will give many signs of stress and pressure,even very subtle and to untrained eye almost imperceptible, but they will stay in the fight as long as they can and tough it out for as long as they can.

A father of my dog Bratz Vom Renaissance is one prettty tough dog, but I believe even he can be run off the field. Son of Kimon Connerforde (this dog is tough with a capital T according to lore I heard of him) ,grandson of Yoshy Dollenwiese who needs no introduction, he is just one mean asshole actualy ENJOYING a good brawl.

The more pressure put on him by decoy (and I have watched from 10 feet distance actualy a good, experienced, intimidating 6,foot 2 decoy agitate him) the more intense and pissed off he gets.

Dogs like that,take it personal. Needless to say, I wouldn't want to own Bratz or touch him in a million years, too much alpha dog meanness and toughness for me - every intelligent dog handler should know his or her limitations.

Last year (I just heard the story and seen the bloody eye) he was being worked by some Belgian helper that came by, unknon to the dog, the dog unknown to him. The guy was supposedly tough agitator and his agitation methods couldbe described as hard. He pissed off the dog and he pissed off the dog -finaly the dog had enough, leaped up to him and bit hiim in the shoulder (non sleeve one).He got pissed and lashed at the dog's head with his leather whip, smacking him across eyes. The dog got even more pissed and this time took it personal, fuck trainng, you and me buddy and again went for the shoulder, this time the sleeve one unexposed a bit. Didn't get much and at that time, everyone (but the dog) decided the "training" is over, maybe we should rethink the methods...

Again, to summarize, as tough as he is (the dog is just plain mean, in my opinion) has the fight continued BRatzwould have eventualy backed down.

So, in a nutshell, yes, mosttly all of normal, tough, mentally sound dogs could be run off the field, but there are many variables as towho, where, what, why as stated above.

Some good responds finally. And I do agree that there are dogs out there that wont back down "in a fair fight" and yeah they are hard to come by and even I would say heck I would not want to own one of these. I seen few in my life and I do stand where I stand that not just any dog will be run of the field but the one that wont well most of us would not want to own. Jim Thanks for yoru respons very detailed and right on. You bring out another question that is on my mind, do your department, and you, work the dogs to exposed these weeknesses in order to improve on them? And finaly the helpers that you talk about that can put so much pressure on a dog, can they recreat the same with no protection gear on? Like I said I am not talking here about a situation where you going to put more pressure on a dog than you would do in actuall real situation, if so than this is kind of not fair to the dog. I am asking you because you one of the few people on this board that has actuall experience in a real situation not made up to be field situation.

LMAO!  Great story, Adi!

ANd yeah thanks Keith I think it's a great topic and I think more people should discuss it, as well I will go as far as saying there is no real right or wrong answear to this, once it will always depend on a dog, two it will depend on some other factors that Jim so well point out. So most likely I will be always on the fence when comes to what my view on it is. First it was yes, than after seeing some insane dogs the yes is not so clear ;) and I am still more prone to no. But when I say NO I don't think of a situation where I will come in in portection gear and act liek a tough guy, your dog has no protection gears so it's not fair to him, when I say no I just base the answear on my self and do I think I can run just any dog out there of thie field and the answear is hell no, maybe week one on a good day ;) lolzz. I still have not met strong enough helper that would run just any dog of the field in a fair fight obviousely, if I would be willing to get realy dirty than heck yes, it's quite simple actually.

I grew up with a PP, there is no way he would have left the field, that dog believed he could take an elephant down and would have died trying, he was not trained to go for an arm, he went for the throat..
 I also think it is forgotten, a lot of us have been bitten, does it hurt when the adrenaline is flowing? I only hurt at the emergency when they are cleaning it out a few hours later, and then I get the drugs for a few days. When in a real fight the dogs are not feeling it either.

That was kind of my point, most people especially helpers forget to mimic the reaction when you actually would get bit. The point that I was trying to make if you think you can run any dog down you better be ready to put you money where the mouth is, not hiding behind protection gear. I got attacked by a dog when I was younger, as well I seen other people getting attacked by a dog, and one think I can tell people look really week comparing to the dog.

Some of the dogs that I belive you would have hard time runing them down usually been trained for one th ing only to attack to fight, shit obedience their obedience sucked almost no obedience.

"I also think it is forgotten, a lot of us have been bitten, does it hurt when the adrenaline is flowing? " --- Yes, it does...

You might have gotten a warning nip or something like that. Adrenaline or no adrenaline when you get bit (a good bite, the one the dog intentions are tohurt) - you WILL feel it. I have.And it was a medium - low, semi hard, kinda warning almost toget serious,don't make me come over and get you for real bite.

I don't have a clue.  Me and Carly just play fetch and go for walks.