Vitamin C ambiguity - Page 2

http://www.vetinfo.com/dvitaminc.html
It is a common misconception that canine Vitamin C supplements are necessary for every dog's health. But, in fact, Vitamin C supplements aren't required for your dog's well-being or longevity. Feeding your dog a balanced diet is the best way to keep him healthy.

Dogs Produce Vitamin C Naturally

Your dog's body produces Vitamin C in sufficient quantities to meet their daily nutritional requirements. Your dog's glandular system helps manufacture his own Vitamin C. This is obtained through minerals from his diet, which are produced in the liver.

A dog creates 18 milligrams of Vitamin C per pound. So if your dog is 40 pounds, he produces the equivalent of two 500 milligrams tablets a day!


What Canine Vitamin C Overload Causes

* Kidney stones and calcium oxalate urinary crystals
* Liver and kidney dysfunctions
* Glandular problems
* Excessive diarrhea

Vitamin C Myth-buster
Giving your dog a Vitamin C supplement does not cure or prevent hip dysplasia. The disease is a genetic abnormality and vitamin C cannot help this occurrence.

Natural Vitamin  C

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0039.htm

YR

Sitasmom, that isn't a particularly impressive source.

I have a friend who recently graduated from UCDavis Vet school. She told me the vet students get exactly ONE DAY of dog nutrition during all that time...and it is brought to them by the experts at Purina. Bleah.

Dogs don't get all they need out of the raw meat that they should, because we can't feed them free-range wild animals. They get pen-fed corn-stuffed junk, which is pretty much all we have available to us unless we are free-range farmers.  Once I shot a wild boar and fed that to the dogs, but that's the closest I actually got to true wild feeding.

Dogs are not getting from their diets what they would have a thousand years ago, no matter how biologically appropriate we try to be. But really, all they need is some C and Omega 3s, which are IMPOSSIBLE to get out of any meat or egg that isn't free-range. It just ain't the same world it was when the dogs' systems evolved.

"Excessive Ca intake is expressed as a delay in bone maturing, inhibition of osteoclastic activity and delay in cartilage maturing. Vit. C could contribute to the disease. (not proved yet)."


Ok, I do try to not bore people to death.  I did my master's thesis on bone growth in particular macro and micro mineral uses.  Yes, excess Calcium can cause "bone disease".  Cornell did this study back in the 50's so nothing new here.
You raw diet people need to calculate well for the growing dog vs the adult vs mixing all the other minerals because the RATIOS are critical.  Next time someone asks me to warrant hip dysplasia, I just want to scream on this one.  (ok, what are you really feeding your dog?) 

Next, vitamin C is recommended NOT supplemented because the dog does produce this and feeding in excess (whatever that measure is I don't recall) will cause the liver to shut down it's production of Vitamin C.  Vitamin C is active in an enzyme catalyst in cartilage and connective tissue production and so it is very critical in bone formation.  ( you really don't want to hear the whole thing) . Humans and primates it is a dietary essential.  Not for dogs. Dogs do a pretty good job here and do a pretty good job of bone formation when macro and micro minerals are fed as balanced ratios.  Copper is one of the more lacking micro minerals necessary for cartilage and  connective tissue formation in some areas of the country because of lack of available copper in food sources.  Studies on growing foals(horses) in the 70"s and 80"s when I did my research proved copper to be a major culprit in many of the bone growth related diseases in horses.  ( I won't bore you with the list, it's a big one)  With these things in mind, YES, you can create a whole herd of nutritional bone growth diseases.  Keep the feeding simple, stick to the nutritional essentials and read a real scientific article on feeding the dog. 

So, here is the end!  No audible snoring?

National Research Council  -  publiction on feeding any animal so check it out.  Just the facts, as Joe Friday would say.  They used to include a CD to assist you in feeding your animal by what  foods you have available in your area.  Hope this helps.

enjoy and thanks very much for asking these questions.  It helps keep the food related problems at bay.
Nancy Rhynard

www.westwoodkennels.com

Nancy, It's not actually the end. I've read too many really good studies that, like yours, indicate the redundancy of Vitamin C (and other macronutrient)  supplementation, but again, they only hold water in a perfect world. There is a whole host of other literature indicating that it don't all work like it's supposed to any more. If my dog were in the wild eating a completely natural diet, sure supplementing would be counterindicated. If not, not.

As one who has studied scientific method, I know you know there's more than one way to interpret the FACTS.

Dogs do produce their own Vitamin C, just as they do insulin, thyroid etc (in healthy dogs not under stress).  Requirements of nutrients vary according to growth and activity levels to name just two, and the same is true of humans.  What is the correct dosage for one person is a scarcity in another and excess in another.

Just as we increase/decrease food according to age, activity, sex, environment etc so we should individual nutrients IMHO; however I am not a nutritionist or dietician just someone who is interested in optimum health and performance.

I don't supplement end of story ;). Hey I don't even supplement my own diet lol

Just trying to give a basic so others can go and find out more

If a kibble diet is missing important nutrients, or imbalanced,  I would imagine that long term it would wreck havoc on the dog..........

Just like us humans.....

As one who has studied scientific method, I know you know there's more than one way to interpret the FACTS.

well said.    what many of us hopefully look for is the study capable of having the results repeated again and again and so, those do hold water.  Or, as the graduate advisor I worked with was known for repeating studies and cleaning up the statistics on them.  I learned a lot from him.  The other advisor I worked with made the "Frosty Paws" dog ice cream.  What a hoot that product is!  Milk whey frozen.  Some companies take that "odd research" and prey on fear and use "new science" to try to capture the market.   One has to use some common sense.     Another couple of posters talked about moderation and that is the best advice. 

What I see more often than not, is people over feeding and over supplementing or maybe with the job I see more than the normal person.   The fad that I am SOOO glad has passed is the blasted low fat diet.  egads!   I saw more rough coats and bad skin from this.   And before that was the "low salt" diets.  Human nutrition does not always apply to dogs. 

I think food storage is one important factor in nutrients that is often overlooked.  Another is the concept of "fresh".   Here in the midwest, fresh is only available during harvest times, otherwise it is picked "green", not ripe.  So, an orange picked green may not be the same nutrient wise as an orange picked ripe.    My two favorite foods are any produce that is "flash frozen" from the field and organic whole milk yogurt.  Wish I had stock in StoneyField.

Keep up these great questions!  The discussion is how we learn!

 I have to get back to my 3rd cup of coffee.  Pass the cream and the sugar!  (only the real stuff please)

Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com