Why OFA and the "A" Stamp Aren't Good Enough - Page 2

BVA compared to FCI, OFA & KUSA

This table is accurate to the best of our knowledge, it has not been confirmed by the BVA.


Sorry - They put up a chart wtih that disclaimer.  It is too simple to try to slot these accross the board.  If you believed this  - you would say what - 50% - 75%? of the GSDs in teh world are dysplastic.  Too many dogs do not correlate when they are done under 2 schemes.

Sunshine, Answer this question for me if you don't mind. Suppose you breed a dog with the HIGHEST penhipp score,(but this dog had 4 other siblings in the litter that were dysplasic) to another dog with an equally High pennhipp score(this dog has 3 siblings that are moderate to severe), How do you project the puppies will turn out??? Think about that situation for a minute and then give me an answer to the question. And if you answer knowledgably then you will have an idea why breeding certs is not enough no matter which system you use!!!

Of course you need to consider how the siblings turned out. I believe that's the whole idea behind the German system where each dog is assigned a number that represents the # of dysplastic dogs it has produced (forget what it's called...Zuchwert number?)

So, would you rather just throw your hands up in despair, and forget about health certification? Oh, it's not 100% accurate, so why waste the money? We'll just go along, blindly breeding one dog to another, without knowing anything about its background...  What's the use of health databases anyway? We all know people cheat, and either don't put in bad info, or lie about what they do put in?

Gawd, I get SO sick of all the naysayers sometimes!    Thank goodness for people like Tina Barber, and Joan Chayani (Hoofprint white GSD's) who DO take health and littermate information databases seriously!

BTW, Gustav, Sunshine is a registered user on this database, but she ain't me. I'm Sunsilver.

And the above rant is just a general rant, not directed at you personally. I've just heard this so many times, where people pick on the flaws of health testing. I often secretly suspect it's a way of avoiding the expense of having it done!

Geez SunSilver, why the drama. I went back through the thread and really didn't see any naysayers or any posters who advocate breeding without hip certification. Are you implying that anyone who doesn't agree 100% with you is a naysayer.

I feel the SV system of assigning a breed value is much more valuable as a breeding tool than either OFA or penn hip. And there is no system that can guarantee 100% hip production.

Rik

I think that the PennHip method is another good tool for diagnosing the likehood of canine hip dysplasie. We must realize that no single method is flawless. Most of us have relied on the S.V. and O.F.A. system for generations of dogs because it was the "only game in town". It is very difficult to compare the findings of the S.V. with those of the O.F.A.. While both entities agree on what constitutes a dysplastic hip joint, the passing ratings of each entity do not correspond exactly.
 
It is a fact that canine hips that passed O.F.A. with a rating of "Good" have developed dysplasie later in life. It is true that canine hips that recieved the "a" Normal rating have later developed dysplasie due to excessive joint laxity. This is the reasoning behind the S.V. requirement for a followup hip radiograph after a dog has produced a certain number of breedings and is participating in the Lifetime (Lbz) stage of the breed survey.

The ratings of the ancestors in the last two (2) or three (3) generations really tell us not much. When examining any dog or bitch is is most important to consider all of the siblings of that dog and bitch, as well as the siblings of their ancestors - ALL of them. And in North America just as in Germany many dogs are never examined because they are sold as nice pets. So, we will never know the true picture.

Personally I consider "a" fast Normal to be an acceptable score and fine for breeding provided it is somewhat of an anomoly and not the norm with a particular line or group. Ideally we should all breed "a" Normal x "a" Normal or at least O.F.A. "Good" x "O.F.A. "Good" or better. But are those always the best dogs? No. Average hip quality itself should not be a reason to cull a dog from breeding as there are many more things that are just as important.

Now, I do not consider the "a" noch Zugellassen rating to be acceptable in any breeding programme, but that is my personal opinion. We all know of "a" noch Zugellassen dogs and bitches who produced hip quality much better than their own. And we know it works the other way as well!

I think that PennHip is an important tool in our struggle to minimize canine hip dysplasie. But I think it, just like the S.V. or O.F.A. system is not the be-all, end-all of any hip evaluation programme. Dr. Lanting is well respected for a reason - he has much knowledge of the structure of the GSD and is a reliable source of information as well as opinion. In the end, I think it os but one more tool for diagnosis, and not a perfect one.

Best Regards (and good topic!),
Bob-O

Sorry, RIk, some of the negative comments above touched a nerve. It's not just this thread, it's a repeated theme that seems to crop up every time health testing or tracking known genetic faults is mentioned.

For instance, there's a website where the owner is trying to keep track of all the GSD's that carry the blue, liver and white recessives. I remember there was a huge hullabalo about 'where does the information come from? How do we know it's accurate?'  Same thing happened when someone mentioned Canto carried the haemophilia gene. Right away, a poster questioned the accuracy of the information. (Which in that case, was too well documented to be disputed.)

I see this as being one of the main things holding back the breed. Breeders are reluctant to admit their dogs carry undesirable genes. Some of them would much rather lie about it and cover it up than admit to it. As a result, the health of the breed suffers, and the owners who buy these dogs suffer huge disappointments and vet costs.

I'd much rather have a system for tracking this information than NOT have one, even if the accuracy is sometimes questionable.

Unfortunately, our breed is so large and diverse, I doubt there will ever be a universal system.

I cam across the one for the American white GSD recently, and was quite impressed by all the different things they are trying to keep track of. Owners are even reporting if their dogs suffered pano as a pup.

Sunsilver, sorry about getting your name mixed up....as for being negative we must have different interpretations of the word. I agree with Bob-O that the status of the siblings is much more important than the individual system as long as the hips fall into the acceptable range. If you look at the posts above mine, where do you see the emphasis being placed on. Knowledge comes from processing information correctly. Many people get testing and certs and don't have a clue "how" to utilize them. Just an observation on my part....I'll go back to lurking and listening.

 Hips in the GSD breed as a whole are not great, I'm sure we all can agree on that. I am a Fred Lanting fan, I like Fred and respect him for his incredible knowledge pertaining to the breed and most importantly his willingness to help others as it pertains to all health issues. I like to use PennHIP at about 6 months of age. Whether you are a breeder or not it is a great tool to use as a preliminary look at what MAY happen to a dogs hips as they age. A loose hip at 6 months will VERY RARELY get better, being loose will only accelerate degeneration in the joint. That being said, I have bred dogs with O.F.A. good hips and PennHIP ratings of 0.33 or lower and still have had puppies with hips that were not the best. I have seen the xrays of dogs that were “a” normal at 2 years old and then re-xrayed at 4 years old only to be O.F.A. dysplastic (in varying degrees). There is no guaranteed formula that we can use that will alleviate the breed from hip dysplasia, we can only use the tools at our disposal to help us to make intelligent breeding decisions. Hip dysplasia will be part of our breed forever, we can only hope to minimize the occurrence of it. It is a real shame when you can O.F.A. hips and elbows in the U.S. and then have the SV say that the elbow xrays are not acceptable to them. There needs to be one universal scheme for hips and elbows for ALL Countries in order to make proper sense of things and have a fighting chance of improving hips in the breed. The SV way of doing things is without question flawed but I.M.O. it is still the best out there in regards to tracking how a bloodline is producing, unfortunately it is not the best in trying to eradicate the problem. This subject will always generate passionate responses and differing opinions much like the tired and old arguments of show vs. working lines.

This has been a good discussion on hips.  But I think that temperament should also be considered and that would be
a topic for another thread.  It should not just be how many clearances a breeding dog or bitch has but also their character and temperament and you have to work the dogs to test that.  I get tired of hearing about dogs or bitches that were imported have a great pedigree but were kennel shy or sound sensitive but then the opwners don;t work them either so how do we know if the shyness is inherited or not?  You get what you pay for I guess.

like I said a topic for another thread.  I got burnt once by a breeder who had clearances but the dogs were spooks.  I was a beginner and I learned the hard way.

Glad people are testing, but test the character and temperaments too!

Terri

SunSilver, you cannot limit yourself to "single" focus breeding if you wish to be successful in breeding the  GSD.

If you concentrate on any one single aspect of the GSD, then you will always find yourself at the "back of the line" in your endeavor.

Hips and Elbows are very, very important, but they are only a fraction of the total GSD.

What about character, what about conformation, what about the ability to function as the GSD was intended to function. 

I like Fred very much and seek his advice and opinion often, but the GSD must be taken as a whole and not limited to a single issue.

There are no "perfect" dogs. We must choose from what is available to advance the breed.

Best,
Rik