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by hodie on 09 April 2009 - 21:04
Hello,
You are probably not going to like my answer, but you asked for people with experience to comment, so I am going to do so in the hopes I can talk you into using common sense.
Without a lot of rigamarole and answering every point or question you ask, let me say this in the strongest of terms. If you have not even ever had a dog, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS WITH A DOG TRAINED FOR PROTECTION. I am not talking about a Schutzhund trained dog, I am talking about a serious trained protection dog. You lack even the most basic understanding about canines. To take on a dog like this is like taking on a loaded gun and leaving it around, hoping that no one picks it up and/or drops it causing it to fire.
I cannot speak to your situation about why you are so fearful. Maybe you have real reason to be so concerned, or maybe not. But there are many other alternatives, including body guards, alarm systems etc., that would make more sense.
I have people come to me wanting a protection dog all the time. I do everything possible to talk them out of it. Why? Because they do not have the experience to own such a dog, nor, in most cases, is the threat real. Let me relay one incident I was recently involved in.
A wealthy couple, a doctor and his wife, bought a protection trained dog from a kennel in North Carolina. The dog was for their daughter who they felt might be in danger living in Miami, FL. As far as I know, after speaking at length with them, there was no real or immediate danger, at least nothing that we all do not live with especially in urban areas. The daughter moved before the dog was shipped from the Czech Republic. The couple agreed to accept the dog since it was already paid for. They paid more than $25,000 for the dog who had been supposedly trained, and of course, that training was in Czech language, with different people. Initially the dog was pretty timid and they felt sure the dog would be fine in their care. As the dog grew more confident of his surroundings, he became much more bold around the house, barking and letting them know when someone was at the door. They normally just put the dog away because he would bark and scare people.
One day, the woman went for a walk with the dog. They had owned the dog for more than 2 years and had not had any problems, other than the dog being pretty aggressive if someone was at the door. As the woman was walking with the dog, on leash, a neighbor woman saw them walking and yelled over the fence that she would join them. She jumped the fence and ran toward the woman and the dog. Without warning the dog lunged for the throat of the neighbor woman running toward them and got the woman by the throat and brought her to the ground where he continued to maul her. The owner tried and tried to pull the dog off, and finally was able to do so, but only after the woman who came to join them for the walk was seriously injured. It should be noted that the couple, the doctor and the woman, had never owned a dog, and had taken NO training with this dog, nor was any offered when the dog was brokered to them by the company in North Carolina. To make a long story short, the dog injured the woman severely and they sued and won a very, very large settlement. The dog was deemed dangerous and was to be put down unless a rescue could be found to accept the dog. I was contacted in this regard, but said it was very unlikely I could accept the dog. In the end, the animal control people threatened to put the dog to sleep unless the owners signed the dog over to a policeman who, in my opinion, unethically sought to benefit monetarily by breeding the dog. I don't know what happened to the dog in the end.
Continued:
You are probably not going to like my answer, but you asked for people with experience to comment, so I am going to do so in the hopes I can talk you into using common sense.
Without a lot of rigamarole and answering every point or question you ask, let me say this in the strongest of terms. If you have not even ever had a dog, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS WITH A DOG TRAINED FOR PROTECTION. I am not talking about a Schutzhund trained dog, I am talking about a serious trained protection dog. You lack even the most basic understanding about canines. To take on a dog like this is like taking on a loaded gun and leaving it around, hoping that no one picks it up and/or drops it causing it to fire.
I cannot speak to your situation about why you are so fearful. Maybe you have real reason to be so concerned, or maybe not. But there are many other alternatives, including body guards, alarm systems etc., that would make more sense.
I have people come to me wanting a protection dog all the time. I do everything possible to talk them out of it. Why? Because they do not have the experience to own such a dog, nor, in most cases, is the threat real. Let me relay one incident I was recently involved in.
A wealthy couple, a doctor and his wife, bought a protection trained dog from a kennel in North Carolina. The dog was for their daughter who they felt might be in danger living in Miami, FL. As far as I know, after speaking at length with them, there was no real or immediate danger, at least nothing that we all do not live with especially in urban areas. The daughter moved before the dog was shipped from the Czech Republic. The couple agreed to accept the dog since it was already paid for. They paid more than $25,000 for the dog who had been supposedly trained, and of course, that training was in Czech language, with different people. Initially the dog was pretty timid and they felt sure the dog would be fine in their care. As the dog grew more confident of his surroundings, he became much more bold around the house, barking and letting them know when someone was at the door. They normally just put the dog away because he would bark and scare people.
One day, the woman went for a walk with the dog. They had owned the dog for more than 2 years and had not had any problems, other than the dog being pretty aggressive if someone was at the door. As the woman was walking with the dog, on leash, a neighbor woman saw them walking and yelled over the fence that she would join them. She jumped the fence and ran toward the woman and the dog. Without warning the dog lunged for the throat of the neighbor woman running toward them and got the woman by the throat and brought her to the ground where he continued to maul her. The owner tried and tried to pull the dog off, and finally was able to do so, but only after the woman who came to join them for the walk was seriously injured. It should be noted that the couple, the doctor and the woman, had never owned a dog, and had taken NO training with this dog, nor was any offered when the dog was brokered to them by the company in North Carolina. To make a long story short, the dog injured the woman severely and they sued and won a very, very large settlement. The dog was deemed dangerous and was to be put down unless a rescue could be found to accept the dog. I was contacted in this regard, but said it was very unlikely I could accept the dog. In the end, the animal control people threatened to put the dog to sleep unless the owners signed the dog over to a policeman who, in my opinion, unethically sought to benefit monetarily by breeding the dog. I don't know what happened to the dog in the end.
Continued:
by hodie on 09 April 2009 - 21:04
Continued from above:
I talked at great length with the doctor and his wife over several weeks time period trying to help them. They clearly had absolutely NO clue about canine behavior, or how the dog was trained, or how to control the dog, or even what language the dog was trained in. Whether the training might have justified the attack remains to be debated. They had no control over the dog either, but until that moment when the dog grabbed their neighbor by the throat, they had not realized that they had no control. In short, they had given no thought to the situations that could arise or any other facet of the situation.
I should note that Mr. Balabanov is a fine trainer and I do not mean to suggest otherwise. I do not know what you have discussed with him, but I would be very surprised if I heard that he agreed to provide a serious protection dog to you. As for dogs with children, NO child should EVER be left unattended with a dog, even your own dog. Common sense should prevail here. But again, even if you are right there, if the dog gets the wrong signal there is certainly a risk of problems arising. Children should not be expected to "quick march" the dog anywhere. That is ridiculous.
I sincerely hope you will rethink this. Having a dog as a deterrent, a companion, is one thing and a wonderful experience. But I think you are considering driving down a very dangerous road thinking about getting a protection trained dog. Many of us here have years and years more experience with canines than do you or will you ever likely have. I do not envision needing such a dog, but I do know that if I had reason to have such a dog, I would know how to handle the dog. I don't think even a long class will teach you to do that.
I wish you good luck and hope you will take this advice and give it serious consideration.
I talked at great length with the doctor and his wife over several weeks time period trying to help them. They clearly had absolutely NO clue about canine behavior, or how the dog was trained, or how to control the dog, or even what language the dog was trained in. Whether the training might have justified the attack remains to be debated. They had no control over the dog either, but until that moment when the dog grabbed their neighbor by the throat, they had not realized that they had no control. In short, they had given no thought to the situations that could arise or any other facet of the situation.
I should note that Mr. Balabanov is a fine trainer and I do not mean to suggest otherwise. I do not know what you have discussed with him, but I would be very surprised if I heard that he agreed to provide a serious protection dog to you. As for dogs with children, NO child should EVER be left unattended with a dog, even your own dog. Common sense should prevail here. But again, even if you are right there, if the dog gets the wrong signal there is certainly a risk of problems arising. Children should not be expected to "quick march" the dog anywhere. That is ridiculous.
I sincerely hope you will rethink this. Having a dog as a deterrent, a companion, is one thing and a wonderful experience. But I think you are considering driving down a very dangerous road thinking about getting a protection trained dog. Many of us here have years and years more experience with canines than do you or will you ever likely have. I do not envision needing such a dog, but I do know that if I had reason to have such a dog, I would know how to handle the dog. I don't think even a long class will teach you to do that.
I wish you good luck and hope you will take this advice and give it serious consideration.
by kioanes on 10 April 2009 - 01:04
vena - i echo hodie's concerns.
frankly, at this point you cannot be certain you will even LIKE living with a dog, let alone a large one that sheds heavily twice a year. the breed is mentally strong and intelligent, and your references to how your future children will behave leads one to believe you will expect blind obedience. this is a thinking breed, and that attribute is a large part of what makes the GSD what it is.
please do more research into the breed as a partner and family member before you make decisions about a 'dog as weapon'.
frankly, at this point you cannot be certain you will even LIKE living with a dog, let alone a large one that sheds heavily twice a year. the breed is mentally strong and intelligent, and your references to how your future children will behave leads one to believe you will expect blind obedience. this is a thinking breed, and that attribute is a large part of what makes the GSD what it is.
please do more research into the breed as a partner and family member before you make decisions about a 'dog as weapon'.
by yena on 10 April 2009 - 16:04
Many thanks for the feedback, this is just the advice we were seeking. We will likely just find a dog as a pet with medium prey drive and rely upon its natural instinct to protect, as several suggested, and only look into a protection dog after going through Schutzhund training for ourselves. My wife and I have raised pet dogs before, but that was a couple decades ago. We both do like living with dogs, it is just until recently with my business at a level where I can work from home most of the time (except for 2-3 months out of the year), we were not around home enough to properly care for a dog.
The "quick march" solution was from my own experience. My parents taught me that if a friend acted inappropriately around the dog (described as doing anything that would antagonize the dog, or make its tail stop wagging), that I was to immediately stop playing and go over to them with the dog and explain what happened, and to risk the friendship rather than risk our friend getting hurt. Never had to actually do it, but we were always mindful of our playmates around the dog.
Regarding the issue of what we are securing against. This is not for when we are in the US (or any other part of the developed world, for that matter), but for when we expatriate. We felt that we would need the four years before we go to actually acclimate ourselves and the dog to each other; there will be more than enough to manage when we make the move, we don't need to have adding a dog as a new family member to the melee. Where we are relocating to is somewhat remote, law enforcement response is about 2-3 hours, the general region is active in the drug trades (though the immediate locale is currently blessedly somewhat unmarred by that activity) and the local government is not appreciative of body guards. While we would have an alarm system, it merely serves to alert us to look into anomalies, as everyone (including the intruders) is well aware of the law enforcement response times. Violent crime is relatively rare, but it does happen, and expatriates are disproportionately targeted as a group.
The value we perceived in a dog trained in Sch. or protection work is we want to cover the possibility of facing down and safely backing away from unfriendly but not immediately overtly hostile parties where we are moving. We were concerned that an untrained dog in such a situation would unnecessarily escalate the incident. We've been warned by other expatriates with experience in the area that encountering shady characters (typically involved in the drug trade) spoiling for trouble can happen. While usually just unpleasant and just written off as the yobs you'll find in any culture around the world, these situations do have a real potential to escalate into a nasty, messy fight. In the event we have to navigate ourselves out of such a tense situation, it would greatly help to have a dog that knows to follow commands to not bark or growl, or to follow the handler slowly walking backwards out of a situation. A protection dog to me would be more for the benefits of the "dog" part than the "protection work" aspect. As a deterrent, as a better pair of ears and nose for general situational awareness, that is what I'm looking for and I suppose I can get that from a pet dog that is shown lots of love and appreciation. The "protection work" would only be the last, desperate line of defense, after all other layers have failed, we've been caught with our pants down with not enough time to run away and we're trapped with no way to run away except to fight our way out. And trust me, when you are an expatriate, you run and never confront unless it is life or death; the roll of the dice say that you will usually have fewer rights than the locals, unless you have very politically powerful connections through your company. What I am hearing here is that obtaining that benefit to have that last lin
The "quick march" solution was from my own experience. My parents taught me that if a friend acted inappropriately around the dog (described as doing anything that would antagonize the dog, or make its tail stop wagging), that I was to immediately stop playing and go over to them with the dog and explain what happened, and to risk the friendship rather than risk our friend getting hurt. Never had to actually do it, but we were always mindful of our playmates around the dog.
Regarding the issue of what we are securing against. This is not for when we are in the US (or any other part of the developed world, for that matter), but for when we expatriate. We felt that we would need the four years before we go to actually acclimate ourselves and the dog to each other; there will be more than enough to manage when we make the move, we don't need to have adding a dog as a new family member to the melee. Where we are relocating to is somewhat remote, law enforcement response is about 2-3 hours, the general region is active in the drug trades (though the immediate locale is currently blessedly somewhat unmarred by that activity) and the local government is not appreciative of body guards. While we would have an alarm system, it merely serves to alert us to look into anomalies, as everyone (including the intruders) is well aware of the law enforcement response times. Violent crime is relatively rare, but it does happen, and expatriates are disproportionately targeted as a group.
The value we perceived in a dog trained in Sch. or protection work is we want to cover the possibility of facing down and safely backing away from unfriendly but not immediately overtly hostile parties where we are moving. We were concerned that an untrained dog in such a situation would unnecessarily escalate the incident. We've been warned by other expatriates with experience in the area that encountering shady characters (typically involved in the drug trade) spoiling for trouble can happen. While usually just unpleasant and just written off as the yobs you'll find in any culture around the world, these situations do have a real potential to escalate into a nasty, messy fight. In the event we have to navigate ourselves out of such a tense situation, it would greatly help to have a dog that knows to follow commands to not bark or growl, or to follow the handler slowly walking backwards out of a situation. A protection dog to me would be more for the benefits of the "dog" part than the "protection work" aspect. As a deterrent, as a better pair of ears and nose for general situational awareness, that is what I'm looking for and I suppose I can get that from a pet dog that is shown lots of love and appreciation. The "protection work" would only be the last, desperate line of defense, after all other layers have failed, we've been caught with our pants down with not enough time to run away and we're trapped with no way to run away except to fight our way out. And trust me, when you are an expatriate, you run and never confront unless it is life or death; the roll of the dice say that you will usually have fewer rights than the locals, unless you have very politically powerful connections through your company. What I am hearing here is that obtaining that benefit to have that last lin
by jayne241 on 10 April 2009 - 16:04
I'm glad to hear you will just look for a medium-prey-drive dog rather than a PPD for your family and your experience. You got some excellent advice.
I'm still not sure about the "quick march" advice. I don't think you should have around kids a dog that would need an intervention just because it stopped wagging its tail. I encourage you to try to find a more relaxed approach, and to get a dog that is suitable for a more relaxed approach. I mean, after all, even a happy dog can't wag its tail continuously. It has to sleep sometime. :) (just kidding, but I hope you get my drift.)
IMHO you should just get a stable medium-to-large-breed dog. Even labs will react if their loved ones are truly threatened. Even mixes. I remember a story in the news once about a Bernese Mountain Dog that was in the back yard when an intruder was in the house and had the woman of the house tied up. When the man started hitting her, the dog jumped through the glass of the back door and attacked the man. (I think it was a kitchen door with a window, so the dog had to jump *up* and through *glass*...)
I'm still not sure about the "quick march" advice. I don't think you should have around kids a dog that would need an intervention just because it stopped wagging its tail. I encourage you to try to find a more relaxed approach, and to get a dog that is suitable for a more relaxed approach. I mean, after all, even a happy dog can't wag its tail continuously. It has to sleep sometime. :) (just kidding, but I hope you get my drift.)
IMHO you should just get a stable medium-to-large-breed dog. Even labs will react if their loved ones are truly threatened. Even mixes. I remember a story in the news once about a Bernese Mountain Dog that was in the back yard when an intruder was in the house and had the woman of the house tied up. When the man started hitting her, the dog jumped through the glass of the back door and attacked the man. (I think it was a kitchen door with a window, so the dog had to jump *up* and through *glass*...)
by Two Moons on 10 April 2009 - 17:04
Yena,
Get you a good dog if thats gonna make you feel better, from what you write I'd say you are making your own destiny.
Know that if someone wants you the dog will make no difference, nor would a body guard.
You are the one responcible for the safety of your family in the choices you make.
Moons.
by hodie on 10 April 2009 - 22:04
Vena,
I am happy to hear that you have given serious consideration to what has been written here. I second what Two Moons says above. In a nutshell, if someone wants to hurt you, or me for that matter, they will simply kill the dog. A dog, most dogs, even dogs trained in Schutzhund, are a deterrent from the perspective that they bark and alert you. That is about it.
As for Schutzhund, I think you also misunderstand what Schutzhund is all about. As a minimum, if you were to participate, it would take you two or more years to really understand the sport and how to train a dog and how to evaluate a given dog. The protection phase is very stylized and is about discipline and control of the dog who has learned that certain behavior in training earned him/her a reward (a bite off the sleeve). It has nothing to do with the dog engaging a real threat.
Finally, most dogs when pressured, will run. If you are so concerned about safety, then I think a logical question to ask is why would you consider leaving and going to someplace where safety really cannot be expected? A dog is not going to help you in such a situation.
Whatever you do, I wish you good luck.
I am happy to hear that you have given serious consideration to what has been written here. I second what Two Moons says above. In a nutshell, if someone wants to hurt you, or me for that matter, they will simply kill the dog. A dog, most dogs, even dogs trained in Schutzhund, are a deterrent from the perspective that they bark and alert you. That is about it.
As for Schutzhund, I think you also misunderstand what Schutzhund is all about. As a minimum, if you were to participate, it would take you two or more years to really understand the sport and how to train a dog and how to evaluate a given dog. The protection phase is very stylized and is about discipline and control of the dog who has learned that certain behavior in training earned him/her a reward (a bite off the sleeve). It has nothing to do with the dog engaging a real threat.
Finally, most dogs when pressured, will run. If you are so concerned about safety, then I think a logical question to ask is why would you consider leaving and going to someplace where safety really cannot be expected? A dog is not going to help you in such a situation.
Whatever you do, I wish you good luck.
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