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by Slamdunc on 17 March 2009 - 04:03
I never tell my pups "no" they can go crazy and bite everything. If it gets to be too much I always have a rag, toy or towel handy and transfer them to that. I am a benevolent dictator and the dog learns that I am in charge but also someone to be trusted. I will do subtle things with a young pup to show that I am the boss. For example, I may feed some meals by hand, I do focus training exercises and motivational obedience even with 8 week old pups. It is short and fun. The dog learns quickly that I am the one to go to for food and fun. My current dog is my police K9 that I raised from a 7 week old pup. If I was raising a dog for a police K9 or PPD I would definately let the dog bite pants legs. I would quickly encourage it with a decoy to do leg bites. Check out Get a real dogs post with the video of the young mali, it's excellent. I wouldn't do this with a schutzhund dog or a pet dog. But a potential K9, ring sport or PPD I would. My current dog has had 3 apprehensions in his first month on the street, he has no problem biting someone for real. But, he has no issues with me and no handler aggression at all.
Let the little guy go crazy, don't listen to the AKC people that you are going to meet. They don't understand working dogs or how to raise them. I never needed brakes on my skateboard, when I got a car with some horsepower I started using the brakes. How much control do you really need on a little puppy?
JMO,
Jim
Let the little guy go crazy, don't listen to the AKC people that you are going to meet. They don't understand working dogs or how to raise them. I never needed brakes on my skateboard, when I got a car with some horsepower I started using the brakes. How much control do you really need on a little puppy?
JMO,
Jim
by Uber Land on 17 March 2009 - 04:03
not everyone wants a biting little monster.
but to each his own.
raise the pup the best you can for whatever direction you choose to pursue . if you want ring sport or PPD or police K9, then by all means encourage the biting, but if you have a young family, and don't want to deal with this, it is time to curb the behavior. its all in what you intend to do with him in the future.
me personally, with my nerve damage, I can't have a puppy who behaves like this. and most pet homes don't want care to deal with this either.
but to each his own.
raise the pup the best you can for whatever direction you choose to pursue . if you want ring sport or PPD or police K9, then by all means encourage the biting, but if you have a young family, and don't want to deal with this, it is time to curb the behavior. its all in what you intend to do with him in the future.
me personally, with my nerve damage, I can't have a puppy who behaves like this. and most pet homes don't want care to deal with this either.
by olskoolgsds on 17 March 2009 - 05:03
GSDguy08,
I have always let my dogs bite me, bite my pants and hold on. I just learn to walk slowly through the house or yard when they have ahold of me. Be prepared to have nice pants ruined. I especially encourage them biting on my bare arm. I hate the feet biting, hurts too much. I like to break down the domestication that has taught them otherwise. I want them to experience biting flesh, and having no quams about it for PPDs. Just be prepared to have your arms chewed up.
Having said that, I do disagree with the no rules theory. The ones I let them break, such as biting, jumping on me when I am on the ground, I allow for a reason. You cannot make a hard fast rule out of any of this or you will miss what is really important. I allow them to do as they please only when it contributes to their future as a PPD. If it is something that will cause them problems, or cause me to leave them locked up when they could be socializing because of there not being appropriate with people, then I will correct them. You have to look at each situation and look at it's short term and long term effect on the dog. To say that you will have no rules, no corrections, no discipline of any kind will limit the dog in his activities in public, which is where you want to do much of his socializing.
A good solid pup such as yours is NOT going to be ruined because you bring in a little well timed, appropriate discipline and restrictions into his life. I believe this is a huge misconception for working dogs. I have never ruined, or retarded a dogs potential by incorperating a little basic obedience or manners into his life. It does not destroy his self confidence. This is nuts. It will only cause him to channel his energy in a more acceptable way, that is acceptable by my standards.
I allow them quite a bit of room, yes. I do not want to hinder their curiousity, courage, confidence or anything else they need to be solid working personal protection dogs. But to throw all correction, all limits out the window can be equally harmful in many ways, including the ones that I mentioned above. Think, think, and think about what you are doing and why. Way too many folks do not do this. Take your eyes off formulas and methods for the time being and look at the dog and what he needs. He is not a machine that can be programed with preconceived methods.
I have always let my dogs bite me, bite my pants and hold on. I just learn to walk slowly through the house or yard when they have ahold of me. Be prepared to have nice pants ruined. I especially encourage them biting on my bare arm. I hate the feet biting, hurts too much. I like to break down the domestication that has taught them otherwise. I want them to experience biting flesh, and having no quams about it for PPDs. Just be prepared to have your arms chewed up.
Having said that, I do disagree with the no rules theory. The ones I let them break, such as biting, jumping on me when I am on the ground, I allow for a reason. You cannot make a hard fast rule out of any of this or you will miss what is really important. I allow them to do as they please only when it contributes to their future as a PPD. If it is something that will cause them problems, or cause me to leave them locked up when they could be socializing because of there not being appropriate with people, then I will correct them. You have to look at each situation and look at it's short term and long term effect on the dog. To say that you will have no rules, no corrections, no discipline of any kind will limit the dog in his activities in public, which is where you want to do much of his socializing.
A good solid pup such as yours is NOT going to be ruined because you bring in a little well timed, appropriate discipline and restrictions into his life. I believe this is a huge misconception for working dogs. I have never ruined, or retarded a dogs potential by incorperating a little basic obedience or manners into his life. It does not destroy his self confidence. This is nuts. It will only cause him to channel his energy in a more acceptable way, that is acceptable by my standards.
I allow them quite a bit of room, yes. I do not want to hinder their curiousity, courage, confidence or anything else they need to be solid working personal protection dogs. But to throw all correction, all limits out the window can be equally harmful in many ways, including the ones that I mentioned above. Think, think, and think about what you are doing and why. Way too many folks do not do this. Take your eyes off formulas and methods for the time being and look at the dog and what he needs. He is not a machine that can be programed with preconceived methods.
by Shezam1 on 17 March 2009 - 05:03
The earlier a pup is taught that the master's clothes and body are out of bounds, the better. Even so, this has to be done very gently. Since the prey drive towards anything that moves (in this case the pant legs as compared to the rest of your body) is a welcome, desireable and natural phenomenon and must be encouraged, the best way to do so is by redirecting it away from you by staying stationary and moving a rag. A gentle "fight" when it targets the rag will soon teach it that there is more fun in that then there is in going after the pants which stops and "plays dead" after it is nabbed.
by olskoolgsds on 17 March 2009 - 05:03
Shezam1
You brought up a good alternative to the pants biting. This can be a good way to save pants, however, I am not concerned with the dog learning that my pants or body are out of bounds necessarily. There may be some instances where I choose not to allow this, because of some issue of instability of the dog, but as a rule I have had no problem with this. I have the respect of my dogs, they know we play rough and hard and when they are hot into it they are given more room to bite harder. For me, it is just apart of the game and preperation for pp work, and actually develops and strengthens the bond between us. I do not believe handler aggressive dogs become this way because someone allowed them to bite in play. This is an entirely different problem.
You brought up a good alternative to the pants biting. This can be a good way to save pants, however, I am not concerned with the dog learning that my pants or body are out of bounds necessarily. There may be some instances where I choose not to allow this, because of some issue of instability of the dog, but as a rule I have had no problem with this. I have the respect of my dogs, they know we play rough and hard and when they are hot into it they are given more room to bite harder. For me, it is just apart of the game and preperation for pp work, and actually develops and strengthens the bond between us. I do not believe handler aggressive dogs become this way because someone allowed them to bite in play. This is an entirely different problem.
by PowerHaus on 17 March 2009 - 07:03
olskool,
I think you have some good sound wisdom! Thank you for sharing!
Vickie
www.PowerHausKennels.com
I think you have some good sound wisdom! Thank you for sharing!
Vickie
www.PowerHausKennels.com
by Gustav on 17 March 2009 - 12:03
Olskool, good to hear from you.....I have 10 week old puppy know that i have had from 8 weeks. He is a monster when it comes to biting, first week he latched on unto pantleg as I walked and I accidently stepped squarely on his foot,(I'm 6 ft 2 in and 215 lbs), he screamed but he never let loose of the pant leg. Having said that he understands two words very well...his name and "NO"!. When my grandkids come over on Sunday(3 and 7 ), when he starts the biting I tell them to tell him "no"and he stops immediately!! He knows that no means STOP what you are doing. So the pant leg issue is over at ten weeks but bring out a rag or tug and he has an alligator bite. He has to understand rules for all of his life and they go hand in hand with other aspects of learning. I have no question(smile) that this pups drive or bite won't be inhibited but I am more impressed with his ability to turn on and off on "MY" terms....That will make him successful in my life!
by Shezam1 on 17 March 2009 - 14:03
olskoolgsds - I did not mean to say that handler aggression is a result of allowing the pup to bite you - far from it. What I was thinking in my head when I wrote is based on the way I train. As training progresses and I teach pups to target a kong or ball on a rope or a tug held in both hands which I move out of reach just before the pup can bite it (to build frustration), I do not allow the pup to even mistakenly bite my hand or clothing without stopping the exercise and reprimanding. At this stage hands are moving at about the same speed as the prey object and I want the pup to strictly target the prey object and not my hands or clothing. Whether it is as a result of frustration or is accidental, it is a no-no in my book at that stage of training and the earlier I can get the message across the better. I hope that makes somewhat more sense.
by olskoolgsds on 17 March 2009 - 17:03
Shezam1,
Yes it does and good points. I do not disagree with what you wrote and I appreciate your thought process. My main point had to do with the teeth on flesh to break down the taboo for our demestciated dogs, and that a little discipline is not going to deprive or hinder a dogs drive or confidence. Thanks for responding.
As to the original post, their are cardinal sins, those things that will cause a puppy much harm, death or lead to huge problems in the future that one has to look at when weighing the options of disciplining or not.
Good to hear from you Gustov. If spook 101 were here it would get interesting. Thank you Vickie
Yes it does and good points. I do not disagree with what you wrote and I appreciate your thought process. My main point had to do with the teeth on flesh to break down the taboo for our demestciated dogs, and that a little discipline is not going to deprive or hinder a dogs drive or confidence. Thanks for responding.
As to the original post, their are cardinal sins, those things that will cause a puppy much harm, death or lead to huge problems in the future that one has to look at when weighing the options of disciplining or not.
Good to hear from you Gustov. If spook 101 were here it would get interesting. Thank you Vickie
by Shezam1 on 18 March 2009 - 02:03
Olskoolgsds,
You obviously have lots of experience, mine is limited since we hardly get to see working line dogs in the country where I live - mostly sports titled dogs that are imported and bred here mainly for showing. I am making attempts to carefully select from these and breed to improve the working qualities but don't know if I will be around to see it if and when that happens. Some day when things pick up I hope to import DDR working lines but right now I cannot risk being taken for a ride.
Can you elaborate on the "cardinal sins" that you mentioned in your last post, I'd like to know your views on that.
You obviously have lots of experience, mine is limited since we hardly get to see working line dogs in the country where I live - mostly sports titled dogs that are imported and bred here mainly for showing. I am making attempts to carefully select from these and breed to improve the working qualities but don't know if I will be around to see it if and when that happens. Some day when things pick up I hope to import DDR working lines but right now I cannot risk being taken for a ride.
Can you elaborate on the "cardinal sins" that you mentioned in your last post, I'd like to know your views on that.
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