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by Penny on 05 February 2010 - 11:02
I hope Jim h wont mind me lifting his very relevant post from BAGSD DEMOCRACY THREAD - and I have to ask the question, did some already have clarification?
The website reads.......
This was discussed at length as two members of the E.C. would not agree to this undertaking, although this procedure was passed by the majority it was agreed that the BAGSD would ask for clarification that the British Sieger Event and VPG Surveys would not be affected by this agreement
I was not well on the 31st and my partner took a phone call after the EC meeting had taken place, passing a message to me I expected that message to be telling me how the voting of members was to take place - Instead came back the message to me "Great News - we have got the British Seiger" I thought that this was very strange, and nothing about voting rights.... hmmmmm
Jims post.....
Clause 9 The Club confirms that it will act in good faith with the Kennel Club on all matters including confirmation that it will not, without the express permission of the Kennel Club, run any events under the rules or regulations of any organisation other than the Kennel Club.
What part of this statement do the EC of BAGSD not understand if they sign this undertaking then it will affect our sieger show why? Well it is run under the SV/wusv Rules
1 This show is not run under KC regulations as it involves all dogs of age to be breed surveyed which means they must be health tested
2 this show also involves our working dog class ie Bite Work Test for VA status
3 this show also has a double handling area set aside to allow us to attract our dogs
4 this show grades all animals from 1st to last
So where do they think it needs any clarification,
jim h
The website reads.......
This was discussed at length as two members of the E.C. would not agree to this undertaking, although this procedure was passed by the majority it was agreed that the BAGSD would ask for clarification that the British Sieger Event and VPG Surveys would not be affected by this agreement
I was not well on the 31st and my partner took a phone call after the EC meeting had taken place, passing a message to me I expected that message to be telling me how the voting of members was to take place - Instead came back the message to me "Great News - we have got the British Seiger" I thought that this was very strange, and nothing about voting rights.... hmmmmm
Jims post.....
Clause 9 The Club confirms that it will act in good faith with the Kennel Club on all matters including confirmation that it will not, without the express permission of the Kennel Club, run any events under the rules or regulations of any organisation other than the Kennel Club.
What part of this statement do the EC of BAGSD not understand if they sign this undertaking then it will affect our sieger show why? Well it is run under the SV/wusv Rules
1 This show is not run under KC regulations as it involves all dogs of age to be breed surveyed which means they must be health tested
2 this show also involves our working dog class ie Bite Work Test for VA status
3 this show also has a double handling area set aside to allow us to attract our dogs
4 this show grades all animals from 1st to last
So where do they think it needs any clarification,
jim h
by Sue B on 05 February 2010 - 12:02
"Surprise , Surprise" as CillaB would say. Now let me see, given the choice which event would I choose to frequent ? Option A) British Sieger under KC guard. OR option B) British Sieger under WUSV umbrella. Option B of course NO CONTEST.
Again I ask you all to see the bigger picture. So the KC have given permission to run a British Sieger event but once again nothing they GIVE comes without FURTHER CONTROL and STIPULATION. This time they have the audacity to believe THEY have the POWER to decide which People & Clubs they deem fit to lead us in this event or to put it another way which Clubs/People the KC deem we should all follow. Quote KC letter "The Committee confirmed that this event should continue to receive Kennel Club Support with the condition that the team organising the event must be led by clubs which have signed and returned the recently issued Undertaking " Well thank you KC Committee but I think we are all quite capable of running a WUSV Event without your permission (as the Irish GSA do every year) and most certainly we are much more capable than you of deciding who we want to lead us and who we want to follow !!!
Now take the next part of this particular KC Letter quote, "The Working Group is also reminded of the conditions attached to the Kennel Club's support of this event as notified in previous correspondence." Yup and we all know what that previous correspondance entails - stewards and committees telling judges how to assess degree's of soundness and reporting them if they dissagree with our own assessment of soundness , not fogetting the No calling, no Hissing, no coughing, no key jangling, no running to the toilet, shouting your kids or any other activity that could be considered outside attracting.
The simple fact is, the KC do not OWN the British Sieger Event and if BAGSD sign the KC Undertaking thats their perogative but it doesnt mean they will have any power over what THE FREE CLUBS (who didnt sign) want to do. Who do you think will be helping organise any KC British Sieger event? Perhaps the Alsatian Clubs will give the BAGSD;s committee a hand but I for one will not be attending it to be led by or to follow any of these people and thats my perogative. My guess is the Clubs who do not sign and who will be running shows under WUSV rules, including the WUSV Breed Standard , Mandatory Health Checks etc etc etc will be organising A PROPER BRITISH SIEGER EVENT where NO KC rules apply, that is the British Sieger I and entrants from the rest of Europe would be attending.
One last thing before I close, this is VERY IMPORTANT,maybe now it is about time for those Club Members & Committee's who voted NOT TO SIGN started to stipulate some conditions of our own like for example to coin part of a KC phrase, "The team organising the event must be led by clubs which have NOT Signed and returned the recent KC Undertaking". What do you think, who do you want leading the way into our Healthier Show World for GSD's, those that sign or those that dont? YOU DECIDE!!!!
Regards
Sue B
Again I ask you all to see the bigger picture. So the KC have given permission to run a British Sieger event but once again nothing they GIVE comes without FURTHER CONTROL and STIPULATION. This time they have the audacity to believe THEY have the POWER to decide which People & Clubs they deem fit to lead us in this event or to put it another way which Clubs/People the KC deem we should all follow. Quote KC letter "The Committee confirmed that this event should continue to receive Kennel Club Support with the condition that the team organising the event must be led by clubs which have signed and returned the recently issued Undertaking " Well thank you KC Committee but I think we are all quite capable of running a WUSV Event without your permission (as the Irish GSA do every year) and most certainly we are much more capable than you of deciding who we want to lead us and who we want to follow !!!
Now take the next part of this particular KC Letter quote, "The Working Group is also reminded of the conditions attached to the Kennel Club's support of this event as notified in previous correspondence." Yup and we all know what that previous correspondance entails - stewards and committees telling judges how to assess degree's of soundness and reporting them if they dissagree with our own assessment of soundness , not fogetting the No calling, no Hissing, no coughing, no key jangling, no running to the toilet, shouting your kids or any other activity that could be considered outside attracting.
The simple fact is, the KC do not OWN the British Sieger Event and if BAGSD sign the KC Undertaking thats their perogative but it doesnt mean they will have any power over what THE FREE CLUBS (who didnt sign) want to do. Who do you think will be helping organise any KC British Sieger event? Perhaps the Alsatian Clubs will give the BAGSD;s committee a hand but I for one will not be attending it to be led by or to follow any of these people and thats my perogative. My guess is the Clubs who do not sign and who will be running shows under WUSV rules, including the WUSV Breed Standard , Mandatory Health Checks etc etc etc will be organising A PROPER BRITISH SIEGER EVENT where NO KC rules apply, that is the British Sieger I and entrants from the rest of Europe would be attending.
One last thing before I close, this is VERY IMPORTANT,maybe now it is about time for those Club Members & Committee's who voted NOT TO SIGN started to stipulate some conditions of our own like for example to coin part of a KC phrase, "The team organising the event must be led by clubs which have NOT Signed and returned the recent KC Undertaking". What do you think, who do you want leading the way into our Healthier Show World for GSD's, those that sign or those that dont? YOU DECIDE!!!!
Regards
Sue B
by jaymesie51 on 05 February 2010 - 12:02
Its not a hard one to answer the clubs that do sign cant work with the clubs that dont sign as they would be breaking the undertaking that they have signed. Do we as a breed need the KC shows in all honesty i say we dont because they are the no atmosphere shows Can we have better run better organized shows than the KC have YES of course we can We could have LG type shows in all area's of Scotland England Ireland and Wales leading to our UK sieger show we could have at least one LG show every month with points on offer to make up our UK GSD Champion all our dogs over the age of 2yrs would need to have current health tests done and breed surveyed before gaining any points towards Champion status so all in all our breed would benefit hands down and so would all of our future puppy buyers surely that is the way ahead for our breeds future.Use the KC for what they say they are, a for registration purpose club nothing else.
jim h
jim h
by missbeeb on 05 February 2010 - 12:02
Now that, sounds like damn good plan, Sue! Time to meet like with like.
by Blerio on 05 February 2010 - 13:02
Am I right in thinking the WUSV constitution has a section that they will not recognize clubs that are outside the umbrella of national kennel clubs. If this is correct, and clubs that fail to sign the K.C. letter are thrown out of the K.C. this would tie in with the e.mail everyone has received about which club will run the British Sieger. Remember one thing, the K.C. will have many options they can, or will implement to suit each situation. If this is correct then it could generate other problems like the WUSV supplying judges for K.C. unrecognized shows. The K.C. have stated they will wit hold C.C.s from clubs who don't sign YES. They have not listed, or said, what other options they could implement, if and when it suits them. It could mean the K.C. means to wear the clubs down bit by bit. regards Bill Owen.
by Penny on 05 February 2010 - 14:02
Hi Bill,
Southern Ireland havent done so badly have they? I have read and read the constitution of the WUSV and I think it is not set in stone, what do others think on this? GSA - Northern Ireland are doing fine - Southern Ireland are doing fine - why could we not be third?
can I quote you...? "Remember one thing, the K.C. will have many options they can, or will implement to suit each situation." so very true ..... if they are in charge......... I believe that we can do the same as the Irish did and the same as the GSA who seem to have no problem getting their judges from overseas Mo.
by Penny on 05 February 2010 - 14:02
I have been told this afternoon - by telephone - from the Chairman of the BAGSD branch - that BAGSD will consider, count, and receive every vote from every member - to be counted, not en bloc - as a branch - but every members vote will be counted.
I have asked that he will put this in writing to us, considering the time it has taken to get this fantastic decision
I have also asked how the votes that come in will be counted, and by whom and I have suggested at the very least that to be seen to be correctly handled..... John Ward who is a very well respected member of our breed community, an an other member of the EC should take the count
BAGSD have been slow. They must now be very aware that they have convinced us all that it was going to be a closed shop - and they now need to be completely transparent about the vote count. I will update when I have finished my conversation, as unfortunately I had to take an urgent call from my mobile whilst we were talking on this very vital and important subject.
Mo.
I have asked that he will put this in writing to us, considering the time it has taken to get this fantastic decision
I have also asked how the votes that come in will be counted, and by whom and I have suggested at the very least that to be seen to be correctly handled..... John Ward who is a very well respected member of our breed community, an an other member of the EC should take the count
BAGSD have been slow. They must now be very aware that they have convinced us all that it was going to be a closed shop - and they now need to be completely transparent about the vote count. I will update when I have finished my conversation, as unfortunately I had to take an urgent call from my mobile whilst we were talking on this very vital and important subject.
Mo.
by jaymesie51 on 05 February 2010 - 14:02
MO do you know if it will only be GSD owners exhibitors that will be voting or is it every member no matter what breed of dog they have
jim h
jim h
by hutch on 05 February 2010 - 15:02
Jim,
BAGSD constitution does not, as far as I can tell, distinguish between any member with regards to voting rights. Whilst it states that only GSDs can attend Branch training classes, there is nothing to say that a member must own a GSD. Given that scenario, I would suggest that all members are entitled to a vote and it is only democratic that they should be able to vote.
BDGSDA do things differently with any member who does not have a GSD being an Associate member only with reduced membership fee and no voting rights. If other clubs don't operate like this then they might want to consider a change so that the future of the breed rests in the hands of those who own them and not with those who don't.
Shirley
by Penny on 05 February 2010 - 15:02
and just a little addition to that for folk that dont know. BDGSDA is Birmingham & Ditrict GSd Associaton. Leicestershire GSD Club adopt this rule too.
I have heard again from the Chairman of BAGSD and he has asked me to qualify a point that I wrote above.
it reads
I have been told this afternoon - by telephone - from the Chairman of the BAGSD branch - that BAGSD will consider, count, and receive every vote from every member -
He wishes it to be known that the word"consider" doesnt mean the votes will be only considered THEY WILL BE COUNTED and that it must be a vote from a fully paid up member of BAGSD. So - secretaries of clubs now need to sent off their membership forms to Doreen Little - urgently, and send in each one your member pays up , perhaps letting Doreen know its coming, as there will be hell to pay if some-ones vote isnt counted, having paid up, and the secretary hasnt sent in their form ... the membership form can be downloaded from BAGSD - Mo
I have heard again from the Chairman of BAGSD and he has asked me to qualify a point that I wrote above.
it reads
I have been told this afternoon - by telephone - from the Chairman of the BAGSD branch - that BAGSD will consider, count, and receive every vote from every member -
He wishes it to be known that the word"consider" doesnt mean the votes will be only considered THEY WILL BE COUNTED and that it must be a vote from a fully paid up member of BAGSD. So - secretaries of clubs now need to sent off their membership forms to Doreen Little - urgently, and send in each one your member pays up , perhaps letting Doreen know its coming, as there will be hell to pay if some-ones vote isnt counted, having paid up, and the secretary hasnt sent in their form ... the membership form can be downloaded from BAGSD - Mo
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