anyone get to the top without electric? - Page 2

 Let's rephrase this:

Anyone get to the top without some kind of abuse??

It is sad but I have to say probably NO!

And they want to make us think this is true working abilities LOL..when you have to use force tracking..force retreive, pich collar razor sharp, e-collar on any parts that is not intended etc..

Where are the TRUE working abilities there?? can someone give me an answer??

It is sad that anything you personally don't use or understand is termed "abuse." Frankly, I consider cranking on a dog with a chain collar to be abuse...and the demonstrable trauma to the neck PROVES it objectively. JMO

July9000:

                 Yes any piece of equipment can be used abusivley, and obviously your lack of experience with driven dogs  of any caliber just reinforces your lack of knowledge in the area of working dogs.

Since by your comments you must fancy the show line dogs your depth of working dogs is obviousley limited.

There are times when USING an e-collar is much less abusive then not using an e-collar.

I had a dog that would do run-by nips on people instead of sheep. She bit children,and tore clothes. Catching the dog was impossible she was too fast. 3 zaps with an e-collar kept her from going to the pound, she was already labled as a biter and would have been put down. 

Had another dog that would get a funny look in his eye and bolt. Once he came within inches of being hit by a car. 5 zaps taught him otherwise. An e-collar kept him from being run over.

Best friend had a dog that chased cars, 16 zaps tought this dog that car chasing wasn't a good idea. Once again e-collar kept the dog from being run over......

In all of these cases the use of an e-caller was much less abusive then letting the dog continue a behavior that would have landed the dog in a very, very bad place. Don't you think?

 Did I say the use of ae-collar was abusive when use properly??..NO

Bob:

Exactly the kind of comments we hear again and again to try to justify..if I don't buy your shit..I must be wrong or have no experience LOL 

You didn't answer the question..maybe you just don't have an answer...

I train without abuse or force-training.  5 dogs from 0 to Schh3, FH2 - I stood on the podium a few times and was a member of a World Team.  No force-training, no abuse, ever.  I do use e-collar, but only to "finish and polish" on low levels, mainly to get a faster out off the sleeve, and to make the long-down solid (my dogs tend to load on the other dogs' retrieves, start barking or wiggling around and the low stem fixes that from a distance) - making the obedience during protection more reliable, retrieves more direct.  Never use electric on the track, or to train anything.   No ear pinch either.  No force or pain - not necessary IMO when you have a good relationship with your high-drive dog who is motivated to work.  It does seem as though the trainers who stand on the podium on a regular basis - the "big names" hurt their dogs to get there.  I can't personally think of many that doesn't - other than perhaps Debbie Zappia (I have not personally seen evidence that she abuses her dogs in training), or Jimmy Honda - probably some others, at least I hope so.  For me, if the sport isn't fun and rewarding for both me and my dog - why bother.

no e-collar can indeed get the results -



molly
Eichenluft Working German Shepherds
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

 "Let's rephrase this:
Anyone get to the top without some kind of abuse??
It is sad but I have to say probably NO!"

An e-collar by definition is NOT abuse!!!

Yes, I'm in the camp of saying there are a lot of jerks using it too much but fair is fair - it can be a kind and useful and FAIR tool.

An e-collar can be tremendously more kind than 25 yanks on a collar.  Or yelling at the dog.  Or any of a number of things.

An e-collar, properly used, can fine-tune a performance to get the extra points needed in top competition.  Zap yourself with the e-collar on the vibrate setting or the low settings.  I've zapped myself purposely with every single setting, on the neck no less (and I don't have fur! LOL) just so I know exactly what number means what.  Not everybody is out there using the highest levels at all, let alone all the time.

Fair is fair: you can't lump the bad trainers in with the good.

The comment stated by you assumes that using electric equates to the use of force which shows your lack of experience.

I,m sure there are many people who have made it to the top with out electric, but your experience would say why do you need force to prance pretty around a ring and give sloppey bites.