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by Sophie on 24 February 2009 - 23:02
Bill
If you are in any doubt as to the photo that Sue B used in her article and suggest that she has used an old one against a modern dog. Then go and look on the following web site www.alastiansuk.com Follow their link for the Champ show Nov 08 and look at the photos of the dogs & bitches on there. They have not changed an inch. In particular the Best Puppy in show and Junior Dog & Bitch, and this is the future!
Sophie
If you are in any doubt as to the photo that Sue B used in her article and suggest that she has used an old one against a modern dog. Then go and look on the following web site www.alastiansuk.com Follow their link for the Champ show Nov 08 and look at the photos of the dogs & bitches on there. They have not changed an inch. In particular the Best Puppy in show and Junior Dog & Bitch, and this is the future!
Sophie
by Videx on 24 February 2009 - 23:02
The ALSATIAN
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~juleaman/
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~juleaman/Page1.htm
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~juleaman/Page2.htm
The only place I found the name GSD on this website; is on the homepage, and it reads:
"On top of his unfailing commitment to the Alsatian (GSD),"
by Videx on 24 February 2009 - 23:02
The ALSATIAN
http://www.alsatiansuk.com/Nov08/nov08show.html
Let there be NO doubt about the ALSATIAN - 2009
HERE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM
by Aileen Mathieson on 25 February 2009 - 00:02
Hi Jeevs, I must apologise for my wording "middle of the road" - by that I meant middle of the road or on the fence ATTITUDES, NOT THE DOGS TYPE - I agree with you as well regarding the over-exaggerations on both sides of the breed, I did actually mean people who will never make up their mind on both sides - some will have particular reasons and be afraid to say them out loud and some are as they are in all aspects of life - CANNOT DECIDE TO SAVE THEIR LIVES. I definitely did not mean the animals in my discussions. A wee bit info on how we started and how novice we were:-
My husband and I started out as pet owners 26 years ago come July when I bought him our first bitch puppy (he actually wanted a male, but when I saw the 14 puppies all alive and kicking one bitch puppy came to me and that was it) and at that time we were just VERY Joe Public and we called them Alsatians. She was from 2 unscored parents (HAD NO IDEA THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS HIP X-RAYS), a pet mum and a rescued male, who was absolutely stunning - he had been battered by his owner and rescued by the Police and then rehomed and what a wonderful boy he was - calm and couthy and my bitch puppy had one of the most wonderful temperaments ever. If I can get a photo of her scanned I will put her on here - a stunning puppy who grew into a very short legged 10 foot long (I exaggerate of course) ironing board back girl, but what a lass she was - will never forget our Sari. Our next purchase a year later was a male, who was actually a long coat, but being STill novices the breeder said he was just a fluffy ball (doh!! - ignorance was bliss in those days). 2 Wonderful pets but both ALASATIANS to us, until we started studying a bit. We bought the Complete GSD book by Nem and Percy Elliott, which enlightened us and then we moved forward from there. From there the rest is history. When we first started showing our dogs we went to many shows a year (up to 45) and being novices did not know there was a difference until it hit us in the face - we were stunned by the dippy backs and long weak hocks and the necks like giraffes - we competed against and basically lost a lot of the time, and then knew not to attend these shows. However, we came across some wonderful All Round Judges who knew what a true GSD should be and it was the most wonderful feeling in the world to win a Class and then take BOB under them. - this was at Canine Show Level of course - Novice Training Ground - which rarely happens these days, but it felt good. Progress means going through an apprenticeship in any sport and it took a long time to get there and on the way we made our choice - Germanic it was for us - but exaggeration no.
Personally, my husband and I prefer moderation in our dogs, but we do like the modern day shapely GSD - we have seen some horrendous over-angulation in the GSD as it is today (in the Germanic side - as this is what we show) with dogs (meaning both sexes of course) dragging their feet along on unsound hocks, huge roach backs and that slope away from the mid-spine to the ground. However, they seem a bit less prevalent over the last 2 years, but nevertheless these dogs went in the ring and were not penalised for their major unsoundness. There is nothing better than seeing a sound animal floating across the ground at a natural pace with its head lowered parallel to its back and covering the ground WITHOUT choking itself to death in the collar with its head held so high it cannot see where it is going, high stepping and no propulsion from the rear end because it is so short in the body (missing middle piece - no length of loin). The true GSD to standard must have that bit of length to give it elegance and movement, obviously with all the other bits being as near to standard as possible.
While I am on here just now
My husband and I started out as pet owners 26 years ago come July when I bought him our first bitch puppy (he actually wanted a male, but when I saw the 14 puppies all alive and kicking one bitch puppy came to me and that was it) and at that time we were just VERY Joe Public and we called them Alsatians. She was from 2 unscored parents (HAD NO IDEA THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS HIP X-RAYS), a pet mum and a rescued male, who was absolutely stunning - he had been battered by his owner and rescued by the Police and then rehomed and what a wonderful boy he was - calm and couthy and my bitch puppy had one of the most wonderful temperaments ever. If I can get a photo of her scanned I will put her on here - a stunning puppy who grew into a very short legged 10 foot long (I exaggerate of course) ironing board back girl, but what a lass she was - will never forget our Sari. Our next purchase a year later was a male, who was actually a long coat, but being STill novices the breeder said he was just a fluffy ball (doh!! - ignorance was bliss in those days). 2 Wonderful pets but both ALASATIANS to us, until we started studying a bit. We bought the Complete GSD book by Nem and Percy Elliott, which enlightened us and then we moved forward from there. From there the rest is history. When we first started showing our dogs we went to many shows a year (up to 45) and being novices did not know there was a difference until it hit us in the face - we were stunned by the dippy backs and long weak hocks and the necks like giraffes - we competed against and basically lost a lot of the time, and then knew not to attend these shows. However, we came across some wonderful All Round Judges who knew what a true GSD should be and it was the most wonderful feeling in the world to win a Class and then take BOB under them. - this was at Canine Show Level of course - Novice Training Ground - which rarely happens these days, but it felt good. Progress means going through an apprenticeship in any sport and it took a long time to get there and on the way we made our choice - Germanic it was for us - but exaggeration no.
Personally, my husband and I prefer moderation in our dogs, but we do like the modern day shapely GSD - we have seen some horrendous over-angulation in the GSD as it is today (in the Germanic side - as this is what we show) with dogs (meaning both sexes of course) dragging their feet along on unsound hocks, huge roach backs and that slope away from the mid-spine to the ground. However, they seem a bit less prevalent over the last 2 years, but nevertheless these dogs went in the ring and were not penalised for their major unsoundness. There is nothing better than seeing a sound animal floating across the ground at a natural pace with its head lowered parallel to its back and covering the ground WITHOUT choking itself to death in the collar with its head held so high it cannot see where it is going, high stepping and no propulsion from the rear end because it is so short in the body (missing middle piece - no length of loin). The true GSD to standard must have that bit of length to give it elegance and movement, obviously with all the other bits being as near to standard as possible.
While I am on here just now
by patrick on 25 February 2009 - 09:02
Sue, Believe me! you are not important enough to ever be considered a passion in anyones life! The fact that you used a foto of a dog that you have no Idea who it was, when the foto was taken, or anything about it, just to maximise the effect of the difference, demonstrates at least a lack of research for you're article. You probably know what the 2007 sieger had for yesterdays dinner! Once again, how can you compare a recent Sieger against a dog from many years ago, and expect people to believe this is todays problem. Sue, this is the misleading point. You have dressed it up to suit you're arguement. I think its wrong, and it's bordering on cheating. If you have to stoop to this kind of press to get you're point across then I want no part in it! Jim h, This is the reason why I have changed my vote. Sophie, Why wasn't one of those dogs from Nov 08 used as an example, I could then understand the arguement, It probably didn't suit the purpose. Sue you forgot to mention the last part of my post. Are you going to compare the 2007 with the 1966 sieger! I dought it! because once again, it wouldn't suit you're arguement, and it would be considered attacking, "One of Ours". I hope every one reading this thread, clicks on the data base and checks out the 1966 sieger and compares it to todays dogs. Bill Owen.
by jaymesie51 on 25 February 2009 - 09:02
Hi Bill sorry but that does not ware with me i dont know if there is some history between you and sue and its none of my buisness if their is but for someone who on previous posts was all for the split then to change their mind because of a pic is beyond me this breed has had two types for decades it had 2 types when i bought my first gsd in 1976 which i thought was an alsatian but was informed by his breeders that he was indeed a german shepherd it was then that i started to research the breed and began to realise that their was indeed 2 types i have always had the correct type and have never wavered from that type and as for the split well it already exists 2 types 2 show scenes 2 different schools of thought on what is correct and what is not this vote is just to separate it so as we can all go our own way some with the sv type (imo the correct type) and some with the alsatian i understand when you say that the pic of the alstian is an old pic but my principles would not be changed because of a pic they are upheld because of my own beliefs which i have stated above
jim h
jim h
by missbeeb on 25 February 2009 - 10:02
Well... there's little hope, if we can't agree something as simple as this between ourselves!
C'mon, Bill... it's not like Sue's trying to persuade a load of new comers; we all know the score, we all know what's out there and what aught to be done.
You know what an Alsatian looks like and so does everyone else that's eligible to vote... that's the crucial thing... isn't it?
by Sue B on 25 February 2009 - 11:02
Patrick said "Sue, Believe me! you are not important enough to ever be considered a passion in anyones life! "
Bill to start with your first comment is WRONG because my lubbly jubbly hubby assures me I am important enough to be the PASSION of his life and thats good enough for me and all I really need.
Secondly = I do not need to know WHAT DOG that is a photo of , all I need to see is the photo of the Type it is and IT IS THE TYPE THAT TO ME DEPICTS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG AND AN ALSATIAN.
Do you now UNDERSTAND BILL? Just in case you do not I will repeat ... Even though that particular photo was sent to me I was more than happy to use it because irrelevant of which dog it was a photo of , and please note that is what I considered important, that the dog used should depict what I considered to be an ALSATIAN type.. get it WHAT I CONSIDER ALSATIAN TYPE, it was MY ARTICLE, OF MY VIEWS THEREFORE IT NEEDED A PHOTO THAT REFLECTS WHAT I DEPICT AS AN ALSATIAN.
Indeed I suspect there are very few dogs left in the UK which I would actually consider an ALSATIAN type for most of what are termed Middle of the Road dogs I consider to be German Shepherd Dogs not Alsatians and if you bothered to read my article correctly you would have seen that I noted such a fact when I said I suspected the lack of Alsatians is possibly one of the reasons the KC would give for not allowing a split.
You see Bill UNLIKE YOU, I do not call Middle of the Road Dogs Alsatians and if I am honest I reckon the only person insulting anyone here is you when you , In My Opinion, Incorrectly said and I quote from your 1st post above we "all know there are vast differences within both sides of the breed, and many Alsatian people are what we call middle of the road with good types. "
Of course what type they want to call themselves is up to them as breeders as I believe it should be up to every individual breeder to decide what they breed but whatever the decision of the breeders does not stop me from having my own opinion and once again IN MY OPINION THE DOG SHOWN ON THE TOP LEFT OF MY ARTICLE DEPICTS WHAT I, WHAT I, CONSIDER TO BE AN ALSATIAN. AND DIFFERING WITH YOU I DO NOT CONSIDER WHAT I TERM AS MIDDLE OF THE ROAD DOGS TO BE ALSATIANS, I CONSIDER THEM TO BE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS, DO I NOW MAKE MYSELF CLEAR TO YOU BILL? Once again you try to put words I did not say and meanings I did not make into what I write, I tell you what Bill, lets see YOUR ARTICLE ON THE SUBJECT , thats if you can make your mind up long enough to write one !!
Regards
Sue
Bill to start with your first comment is WRONG because my lubbly jubbly hubby assures me I am important enough to be the PASSION of his life and thats good enough for me and all I really need.
Secondly = I do not need to know WHAT DOG that is a photo of , all I need to see is the photo of the Type it is and IT IS THE TYPE THAT TO ME DEPICTS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG AND AN ALSATIAN.
Do you now UNDERSTAND BILL? Just in case you do not I will repeat ... Even though that particular photo was sent to me I was more than happy to use it because irrelevant of which dog it was a photo of , and please note that is what I considered important, that the dog used should depict what I considered to be an ALSATIAN type.. get it WHAT I CONSIDER ALSATIAN TYPE, it was MY ARTICLE, OF MY VIEWS THEREFORE IT NEEDED A PHOTO THAT REFLECTS WHAT I DEPICT AS AN ALSATIAN.
Indeed I suspect there are very few dogs left in the UK which I would actually consider an ALSATIAN type for most of what are termed Middle of the Road dogs I consider to be German Shepherd Dogs not Alsatians and if you bothered to read my article correctly you would have seen that I noted such a fact when I said I suspected the lack of Alsatians is possibly one of the reasons the KC would give for not allowing a split.
You see Bill UNLIKE YOU, I do not call Middle of the Road Dogs Alsatians and if I am honest I reckon the only person insulting anyone here is you when you , In My Opinion, Incorrectly said and I quote from your 1st post above we "all know there are vast differences within both sides of the breed, and many Alsatian people are what we call middle of the road with good types. "
Of course what type they want to call themselves is up to them as breeders as I believe it should be up to every individual breeder to decide what they breed but whatever the decision of the breeders does not stop me from having my own opinion and once again IN MY OPINION THE DOG SHOWN ON THE TOP LEFT OF MY ARTICLE DEPICTS WHAT I, WHAT I, CONSIDER TO BE AN ALSATIAN. AND DIFFERING WITH YOU I DO NOT CONSIDER WHAT I TERM AS MIDDLE OF THE ROAD DOGS TO BE ALSATIANS, I CONSIDER THEM TO BE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS, DO I NOW MAKE MYSELF CLEAR TO YOU BILL? Once again you try to put words I did not say and meanings I did not make into what I write, I tell you what Bill, lets see YOUR ARTICLE ON THE SUBJECT , thats if you can make your mind up long enough to write one !!
Regards
Sue
by Sue B on 25 February 2009 - 11:02
Ps - And by the way Bill I have no idea what Pakros d'Ulmental had for yesterdays dinner and neither do I care. And quite frankly I cannot see why you keep ranting on about the 2007 Sieger, except that he is a German Shepherd Dog what exactly has he got to do with my article? Unless of course YOUR RESEARCH CANT EVEN CORRECTLY STRETCH TO THE DIFERENCE BETWEEN THE 2006 AND 2007 SIEGER !!
Sue
Sue
by pacosbear on 25 February 2009 - 12:02
Patrick have you referred to videx post for the Alsations:
http://www.alsatiansuk.com/Nov08/nov08show.html
this is the 2008 - alsation event, maybe if you want to compare 'types' then look at here also
http://www.solidogsds.co.uk/british_sieger/2006/index.htm
this is the 2006 british seiger event
Should you wish to compare the 'recent' gsds to 'recent' alsations, then there's the links - the GSDs shown in an earlier year than the alsations. Maybe then you would re-read suebs article in the context of the comparisons given above?
liz
http://www.alsatiansuk.com/Nov08/nov08show.html
this is the 2008 - alsation event, maybe if you want to compare 'types' then look at here also
http://www.solidogsds.co.uk/british_sieger/2006/index.htm
this is the 2006 british seiger event
Should you wish to compare the 'recent' gsds to 'recent' alsations, then there's the links - the GSDs shown in an earlier year than the alsations. Maybe then you would re-read suebs article in the context of the comparisons given above?
liz
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