2 e-collars does not equal abuse........ - Page 2

Yup wht did we do before the ecollar, hmmm maybe take more time in training?

moons,

I honestly think that hexe was baited into this one. I have my doubts as to her experience, but not about her conviction! The day that you become close minded or blind to different tactics is the day that you stop learning, imo.

I think that she has come to the conclusion that it is all that bad, but has never witnessed it. Don't care to change her mind. She is entitled to her opinion. I have never witnessed it myself, but I know from experience, my one controller can can control three collars, but only one at a time. And at the lowest setting, none of the dogs I have ever put it on has ever realized the stimulation. That can't be said for the older units. And if you have any more than one person correcting on ecollars, then I doubt that it is training, may be wrong.

BTW, every person's pain threshold is different, as well as every dogs. I can take the monetary stimulation on the highest setting, but my cousin cannot handle it past the 2nd level. Same is true with the dogs. You always start at the lowest, going up until you get the first reaction, which should be a twitch. That is your base point and you work from there.

Hexe, just curious, why would you ever need three units? I can only correct one dog at a time? And no, I am not calling  you out.

KatK9, lol, they do not replace training, only supplement it for me. I can't say for everyone else out there though. What did we ever do before the tractors and cars.

I'm glad you brought this up as I wanted to, just didn't have time.  

getreal, I have three units because there have been, as you've pointed out, a great many changes in e-collars over the years. Both times that I bought a newer one, my older units were still 100% functional but worth nothing as far as trade-in value, so I held on to them.   Haven't bought a new one in ten years, simply because I haven't needed to use one for quite some time now; when it comes time to add a new dog to the household, I may well buy yet another new one if the need arises.

I'm open to learning different training techniques, but that doesn't require me to be 'open' to abusive methods.  I haven't witnessed the use of an e-collar to the belly or flank, thank goodness; I haven't witnessed an adult shaking a baby in an attempt to quiet it, either, but if that's described to me I am able to recognize that it's abusive and wrong without actually seeing it being done.  The folks I started training with thirty years ago instilled in me a belief that it was worthwhile to observe other trainers whenever possible; if nothing else, I could learn what *not* to do, if the trainer was a bad one.  I go back to the Koehler-type school of training, with refinements over the years as I've studied animal behavior as well as dog training; but I'm not big on the 'click 'n treat' style of training, for the most part.  I'm a *big* proponent of Ivan Balabanov's training style and methods.

Thirty years ago when we were training dogs for protection work, there wasn't any sort of 'dog sport' activity involving protection going on in the area; anyone doing bitework was doing it for real application in real life, not for points or titles.  A good number of the dogs we used for this work were pound-bound: strays who hadn't been claimed by their owners, dogs who were too much for their owners and the like.  Very, very few dogs that were 'bred for work', fewer yet that had been given 'foundation' work as a pup.  Funny how we were able to get these dogs trained up to be reliable and safe for the handlers to work without having to use e-collars on the bellies or flanks, and without kicking them or pounding on them or sharpening prong collars to make corrections...  But we weren't training dogs for the purpose of inflating an ego, or for sport points or breeding titles, so we were willing to accept that some dogs simply weren't cut out for the work, and we were also willing to accept that good, solid training might take longer with some dogs than with others and were willing to put the time in that was necessary to make it possible for the dog to succeed and go on to a productive and useful life.  I wasn't taught to take shortcuts. 

Whoever can find the answer to the question "How shall I say this to my dog?" has won the game and can develop from his animal whatever he likes.  

That's a quote from von Stephanitz, from one of the chapters on training.  I'm pretty sure the answer isn't, "Apply electrical stimulation to vulnerable parts of the dog's body".

Edited to add:  And yeah, I know I was being baited, but I was in the mood for some sport since we're snowed in up here and everything's drifted closed, so I figured I'd play this round through.

hexe,

Ebay them, every old unit I ever sold on ebay has brought way more than I thought they would, and should in some cases. Tri Tronics was offering 30 or 35% off on an upgrade if you sent them in the old units, so I traded this time. One unit was wasted from a leaking battery, and it was only about an extra hundred more than having them fixed.

I just happen to think that you jumped on "abusive" way too quick. Personally, I know that the lowest level on my unit will not even bother the dogs that I have worked with, and I doubt that it would on their flanks. I have no reason or desire to go out there and do it just to see. And I am not condoning irresponsible idiotic use of ecollars by others.

If I had a dog that wasn't responsive on the neck, would I consider relocating the collar? I am sure that I consider it and determine if it would help. Depends on the situation. I learned a long time ago that I should never say never. Everytime I did, I ate my words. What makes you think that the belly would be any more vunerable that putting electrical in the area of a dog that controls it breathing and neurological paths? Something to think about.

My opinion remains the same, as does yours.  I am about the animals that I work with. I do it because I love it. No snow down here on the gulf coast, a little rain today.

Good luck with your round with GARD and have fun training,

Jerry

BTW, the ecollar companies don't care who they sell to or how they use them. They care about selling another unit and that almighty dollar.

Best wishes,

Jerry

"Yup wht did we do before the ecollar, hmmm maybe take more time in training?"  (KatK9) 

Many of the tools and methods used prior to the modern ecollar might  be considered  brutal or even barbaric compared to todays tools and methods by some people.  Few modern trainers are 100% or even primarily using all compulsion and force, everyone I know now  routinely includes motivational methods in their training regimes.  Sharpened pinch collars were the norm, as was hanging with a choke chain.  I remember those left thigh straps with nails through it to correct the forging or crowding dog.  Even ecollars have come a hell of a long way.  I don't know anyone who feels the need to wet the neck of their dog prior to attaching the collar  anymore.  Trainers know how to use the collar with finesse because they know from experience the negative effects of being heavy handed.  I don't see the ecollar as a last resort or even punative, rather as some one else mentioned it functions as a tool for tuning up, cleaning up,  speeding up, etc..

 

Great post Sue.