working gsd bitch puppy wanted - Page 2

Kobold and Trude belong to my partner, Ulf and he bred a litter from them, registered under his own affix Sachsenhaus.  His dogs and his decisions for scoring and breeding are his own.  Kobold is A normal hips and Noch Zugerlassen elbows (permissible for breeding) and Trude was decribed as having minimal arthritic change in her elbow when xrayed following a serious injury.  The UK scores are correct.

I am not planning to elbow score at this point.  Having seen no improvement in the general standard of hips in UK after 40+ years of hip scoring, I see no reason to believe the elbow scoring scheme will be any different.  

Margaret N-J

Mick7227.  Good on you for wanting a pup thats got a good start with health tested parents.

Kaffirdog.   Surprised you don't elbow score Margaret with you breeding and promoting your working dogs ???????.

Kaffirdog.   I thought you would say your partner was the breeder of the puppies in question but you still advised mick7227 to go to your partner as well as yourself for a puppy knowing that he had stated he was sick of having hip and elbow problems previously.   Your opinion on hip and elbow scoring is shocking and how you can possibly think that an elbow score of 2 is only mininmal when the maximum score is only 3 ?, even the kennel club only recommend breeding from elbow scores of 0 or 1.  you said trude ( N.naughty girl ) got her score of 2 from a serious injury so did her Sister N.nobody's fool have an injury also then ?,she also has a score of 2.

If you thought I would refer to my partner as the breeder of the litter you are making a song and dance about, why didn't you just ask him in the first place since you clearly know who he is and that he owns the dogs in question.  I don't know if Trudes elbow score is the result of injury or not, just the vets opinion after xraying her at the time was that it likely was and the changes were minimal, her score was done later.  It is apparently not possible to tell if the arthritic changes in a dogs elbow are due to injury or not.  Her sister you mention is in an active pet home and the owners have never mentioned having her scored, only ever enthused about what a great dog she is, so I can't comment on that.

If there is ever any indication that my non elbow scored dogs are producing more elbow problems than scored dogs (never had anyone complain about elbow problems since my line started in the early 1970's) then I might consider elbow scoring to be of value, but in the meantime, I don't believe it will make a jot of difference.

Margaret N-J

I’ve heard the same thing said about hips, never had a problem in my lines so therefore no need to score.  When I get a problem, then I’ll score – same old.

It’s hearsay and does nothing to reassure a puppy buyer that said breeder is making reasonable efforts to try and produce healthy pups and taking health seriously.   When it is an established health issue in a breed, isn’t that a good enough reason to test?

If we all gave up before we even started, I daresay health issues will likely become deeply embedded in the genetics and be impossible to eradicate.  Elbows worry me more than hips due to the weight bearing and structure of the dog, and it's appearing to be more hereditary in nature than hips.  All breeders should now be doing elbows in UK IMO.

Even today, there are some people still not doing hips and many 5 generation pedigrees I’ve looked through, not all dogs are scored despite hip scoring being available for over 40 years.

So in reality, if there has not been a united, concentrated effort to attack HD, how can one say that it is not improving or that there is not going to be an improvement?  Surely, one should lead by example and not assume anything until methods have been truly tried and tested by all.  This has not been the case with hips in UK and it seems it's not going to be the case with elbows either ….

Disappointing…

Kaffirdog.    I am not making a song and dance , I am just stating facts. You know very well I asked your partner in the first place, I've already said I did in an earlier post.  It's up to you what you do or don't do regarding the health testing of your working/breeding dogs but please don't continue to bullshit people that are looking for puppies from hip and elbow tested parents,  it's bound to get others backs up like myself who was in the same position a few months ago as mick7227 is in now.   I have finished with this, I have said more than I originally intended but you pushed it and riled me even more. 

 

Go to  Linern GSD's,

Firstly select lineage from poven performance lines that have prodouced a good percentage of scores over the generations

That done ask yourself this:

worst case - unscored stock that work day in day out in sport or whatever discipline and produce progeny that do the same in active service or sport till a ripe old age (eg Lakatamia Ninja at Nyrvana)

or

the seemingly safer option - fully scored stock that spend their time walking around fields and laying on benches and occasionally chasing balls or even popping down to the schutzhund club on a sunday afternoon.

More important that  looking at adverts or taking peoples opinions is educating yourself and then taking the time to delve deeper into the issues concerned and do firsthand research - VISIT and make your own decisions.

the NVBK breeders dont score their breeding stock - but do they need to with that programme being the requiremnt?

Not saying screening is not valid - but weigh the options and look at the big picture - it doesnt give you guarantees - nothing does.

 

No it doesnbt give you any guarentees as even breeding 0 to 0 will produce some progeny but if it is inherent in the line ie sire/dam and dams sibbling then you have a greater chance of having affected progeny.
Not all dogs show clinical signs I have a dog with grade 3 and it does not affect his movement/jumping ability he works flushing game/visiting psychiatric units etc he has a 0:0 hips if I hadnt of elbow scored he would have been used therefore passing the problem on to further generations, hence he was Castrated.

Mick contact Linern at least she will be honest and does score her dogs elbows and has done so since the begining of the scheme in the UK
www.jaquenetta.com/GSD%20Elbow%20Scores%20League.htm