A PPD Question - Page 2

animules-  I'd have to say that considering a dog really doesn't mature til it's around 2 years old I'd have to venture to say that it could not be a solid level 3 PPD at such a young age.  IMO I could see a strong level of foundation work being done and I wouldn't disagree that the dog knows how to bite but does it actually understand why it's biting or the difference between a threat and non threat at this age???  Not knowing the dog or the background it's hard to say as all dogs are not the same, do not learn on the same level.  Is it possible??  Well I guess anythings "possible". lol 

One issue is the difference between a Personal Protection Dog and a Competition Sport Dog... the latter will most likely only be asked to bite a sleeve or padded suit, and may become equipment focused.  The former are generally social dogs who are rarely if ever asked to actually bite, but when asked must do so with sufficiant force to deter an attacker and protect their owner.

One of the best of the PPD's I've seen was a very small bitch trained by a friend, and she detested the sleeve... the assistant had to be quick on the catch or she'd dive under the sleeve to get PERSON!!  He placed her with a gentleman who traveled widely with her in his car, and when the big day came... he opened his car door just as a carjacker jumped him... the dog alerted and attacked... under the car door and came in low taking out the attacker's knee.  Not what you'd plan for a Sport Dog... but extreemly efficient for a PPD. 

Sport dogs are presented with a repeated senario, blinds, assistants with sleeves and whips/sticks open field, people watching from the sideline.  They are expected to perform in a certain way each time.  PPD's need to be exposed to the widest variety of situations possible with all kinds of distractions.  Fairs, parades, woods, city streets... and handle all in an easy manner.  I have only owned/trained one PPD in my life, so am by no means an expert... but 2 of  the few times he was called on were while riding in my Van in NYC when some street punks came up to my open window and grabbed my arm at a light...  and at a Country Fair when an over excited drunk started  yelling and hugging me (I'd found his wallet with $600 in it) He did NOT BITE in either situation... but came on alert, snarled and waited for my command to go.  The first punk backed off REAL fast... and the second guy never knew he was inches from getting bitten.  Any good Shepherd might  have alerted to the danger in these situations... but only a TRAINED PPD would reserve the actual bite until commanded.   There are no specific guidlines as someone mentioned... but that's because each person's needs and hence the training of the dog for that person are specific to those needs. 

An older lady that went to church with me told me about a German Shepherd that was given to her years back. She didn't know anything about it, but someone came and tried to rob her, and he actually did attack, biting the guys hand that had the gun in it.   And a few days later, her children had toy guns out pretending to shoot each other, and the dog walked over and gently took the guns out of their hands, dropping them on the ground. I thought that was pretty cool.

I have a K9.  He is trained in "Threat recognition and assessment" is it a threat or not, should I escalate according to the threat being presented.  He knows when to be concerned and lets me know as well, I trust him with my life and that of my family.  It is all in how he was trained.  Here is my trained K9 (and yes, he is one heck of a K9, especially in threat recognition according to his trainer who keeps asking me if I am sure I don't want to sell him to a police agency.  He is the one with his leg over my sleeping son.

GARD i think what the OP was meaning when he said "teaching the dog to target a weapon" was not if he sees a squirt gun or a knife or w/e to go and attack that person right away.

I think what he is meaning is that when the command is GIVEN to go for the arm/hand that has an object in it. Your right the dog cant differentiate between gun and squirt gun but if you train in attacking someone that has a object when the command is given i believe he wont go around and try and kill your friend chopping vegtables as you put ( lol love the analogy though).

And with that i dont believe that if you give the command and the assailant doesnt have an object in his hand that the dog wouldnt bite at all. JMO.

Ok point taken but in respect to that mindset........

It is the same thing as the "Lone Ranger" shooting the gun out of the bad guys hands. You don't do that. Anyone trained in firearms is not taught to shoot the hand (even if there is a weapon in it) or the leg to wound someone. You go for center mass to take out the threat.

I fyou did teach a dog to go for the weapon hand, and the dog bites the elbow or forearm (which is the target that would be presented) what is preventing the bad guy from still firing that weapon? Nothing. Wht prevents them from switch hands and firing the weapon. Nothing. You teach the dog to go full force into the body mass, legs, or upper body shoulder area. You want the suspect taken off his feet, and on the ground fighting with the dog. Not switching hands and pointing the weapon at you.

And again, you never teach a dog to attack on the presentation of an object. Never, never, ever.

As for "threat recognition and assessment" that is a load of baloney. Yes you can teach threat recognition, and the dog should have this naturally, but the dog has no ability to "assess" a level of threat. Baloney.

I am not saying anything negative about the dog. I don't know it and have never seen it. But I have major concerns about a trainer who is feeding someone this crap. They are giving them a false sense of what to expect from the dog and what the dog is able to do.

Is the handler supposed to rely on the dog to assess the level of threat and control the situation? How are they supposed to do that? They do not have the ability to reason. What if there "assessment" is not the same as the handlers or the law?

I get mad when people are fed bullshit, that could possibly put their lives in danger.

If the dog bites the forearm or elbow of the target hand/arm wouldnt that have a better chance in disarming the suspect then him being bit in the opposite arm where he still has more of a chance to fire at you or the dog?

I mean if i was holding a cheeseburger and some dog bit me in the elbow of my cheeseburger hand i would drop it quick like. Yes the threat of you or the dog being shot in either situation is there but isnt it better odds to not get shot if he went for the target hand?

i still want to know what a PPD 3 is?  how is it different from a 1, 2, 4, 5?  how high does the scale go?  what is the "standard" for evaluating these dogs?

to me its real simple, either your dog is going to protect you or it isnt.   the truth of the matter is,  if the bad guy (or girl) has a weapon and really means to do you harm,, then your dog is only a shield.  something to give you  a few seconds to get away or get a weapon yourself.

not wishing bad luck on anyone, but as soon as one of the "personal protection dogs"  fails and the owner is injured, raped, robbed, etc.  you will see a decline in the industry. 

like i was told long ago,  if you want a dog to protect you, all you really need is a dog that barks at strangers.  most would be robbers will go to the next house, the one without the dog.   i would venture a guess it would be the same on the street.  Mr. Bad Guy would see you walking with your dog and say its to risky, or they are going to assault you anyway.   in which case i would suggest a gun and not a dog.

john

Hi everyone i was planning on leaving this post alone because whenever the target Kennel or trainer responds it usually gets ugly. But here goes. As far as the photos or videos you have to understand you have to use equipment, and stage the scene for safety reasons. and photos and videos are to spark the mind into picturing the response in a real situation. 

VKFGSD

Let me understand something you want to see a dog standing fighting the dog right!!!!!  How many post have you seen that sch dogs are not protection dogs!!!!! But they bite standing up!!!!!! Now the photos of dogs under the bushes and the dog on top of someone, in the dark on cars and so on is to show the ability.  You have to undertsand I could show you a photo of the most beautifull woman in the world, but someone would complain that she must not have brains because you can not see them in the photo!!!! Now as far as the dog in the photo he will bite you standing up, sitting down, passive or  when you are being aggressive.  You have to find the right dog and have the right training.

Now as far as the target arm with guns knifes and so on, first of all you dont take a dog to a gun fight, but if you happen to find yourself in that situation your dog is their to buy you time to get the kids and to hall ass out of the situation. You get to a safe place and call the police.  Now I train for the dog to hit hard and put incredible head shakes on the person to keep them from thinking. See most people when they feel that kind of pain and sustain real damage will not think about the gun and shooting. now if the person is that well trained and can stand the pain and shoots the dog by that point you should be out of the situation.  

Now for the person who has no idea about what level 1,2,3,etc... means it is based on the same as sch1,2,3. For example a lot of people want a dog to bark on command, bite while on leash and basic obediance. Their are others who want building searches, car jacking training, send outs and so on. The levels are a way for people to understand the more you want the more it costs. Now not all level 1 dogs can be level 3, but level one dogs will protect you. It is the bells and whistle that raise the price. You would have to compare the prices and levels or whistles with each kennel or trainer you talk to.

Everyone here is caught up on the target the weapon hand, well it has been my experience that most police departments dont even teach that, they teach to take the guy out hard and fast. Thanks Dennis, Eisen Faust Kennels

i am the one who has no idea about protection dog levels.

is there a standard for these levels or is it up to the individual trainer to say what is a level 1-2-3?   is your level 3 the same as the next personal protection dog trainer?    i do train in schutzhund and i dont see the corralation between a dog that is suppose to save my as*, and a dog trained for compitition.

if every trainer has there own idea of what a "level" is,  than the whole thing seems like a way of making money from people who dont understand the true make up of a dog.    as silly as the saying is it still holds true,,,,,its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog.

level training is nothing more than bells and whistles?  then i want my "PPD"  to be able to play the sax.  man I love jazz.

the fact of the matter is there a lot of people out there that will buy a dog, while taking the word of a "professional trainer",  who have no idea of what their new purchase can really do, but they saw it bite the guy they bought it from.

to frustrated to write any more,

john