Herding - Page 2

Wow great pics Mickey D. Brings up some questions. The ACD seem to flop on their bellies and bite the planted rear leg as low as possible.  Many pics show the cows face to face with the dogs and this is when I call my dogs off. I'm worried just how the dog will handle the bites when trained to bite down hard and not let go, in PSA. Will they instinctually adjust and let go when the cow responds? So far I let the dogs get close enough to push the cattle but not bite or cause teh cows to kick. The cows gather around us when we are working and I worry they will get too close or hit by the backhoe or truck we are using to work on the property. I have been using my dogs to push them away and keep them back. It's a fine line and slow pushing, if done with too much energy and enthusiasm, the  mother cows will face off instead of move away. Calves are easy, they are the first to walk up but also to be chased away. Cute little bastards. Funny the bulls are the last to bother with us and I hardly see them at all.

Hi 4pack,

I dug around on the 'net to find out more how the Aussie Cattle Dog herds. They have a very well-written working standard at this link:

http://www.australiancattledog.com/Working_Standard.htm

"Grip
The Australian Cattle Dog is best known as a "heeler" because of his instinctive grip. This is done in various ways depending on the livestock and rate of travel. Stubborn or wild stock may require a forceful hard biter until trained, whereas dairy cattle may just require a dog's presence. The typical technique is for the dog to time the grip to occur on the foot of the weight bearing leg, and to duck to miss the ensuing kick. The correct "heel" is low on the leg at the fetlock or coronet. The Australian Cattle Dog should not only heel, but use force at the head when turning or stopping livestock. All gripping should be quick with an immediate release. Gripping should be appropriate and not excessive."

I know there are GSDs with Schutzhund and HGH titles, but the dogs are working sheep. GSDs are supposed to grip the back of the sheep's neck, aren't they, so I don't know how they transfer that to cattle.

Micky

i tried to find a herding group that welcomed gsds some months back, but couldn't really find one. does anyone know of someone in the "inland empire" area of southern calif? san diego is too far (gas costs), but would drive ~40 miles one way. i'd love to try our dogs.

In learning from an elder friend about herding in a natural sense.It must begin with exposure as a puppy.Not in competion fields.Imagine living in a place that is totally surrounded by fences.Beyond that fence is a cow..a goat and some fowl.Within the fence there is a chicken coop.A good eye will see what the pup has chosen at an early age to work.Pick their job.No words need to be spoken.In observing the individual pups reaction says alot.As well the pup should be set up with a natural obstacle course to see how the individual covers it and investigates.If the pup needs a littermate to boost confidence even though by appearance the first one that seemed to be the best herding prospect.That pup probably has another venue..not to be culled but to find the right venue for the individual.Someone on another thread brought up about gun shyness.There should be none.Young pups..alpha in a litter should have no problem travelling acrost(sp) old metal roofs nor doing a teter totter object etcWith the way dogs are kept today..a strong mother cannot show her pups as the wolf once did.This goes for showlines and working lines.

Interesting discussion.  My breed is actually is ACDs but I do schutzhund with them so I lurk on this board ;-)  Here are some good pics that show the ACDs style on cattle:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zingpix/2552444631/in/set-72157600136295582/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zingpix/474072331/in/set-72157600136295582/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zingpix/2391762280/in/set-72157600136295582/

I have a couple of other trainers who I know not to have a bias against an upright herding breeds:

Kent and Lori Herbel - have owned, trained, and trialed GSDs

http://xpranch.tripod.com/

Lynn Leach - has two excellent DVDs out as well on herding with upright herding breeds:

http://www.downriver.org/

LOL, I just noticed that someone already posted a link to Jeff's photos   Those ACDs are all in the Pacific Northwest and are some of the best herding ACDs in the country.

my dogs just naturally started herding .They are with me all the time and when im bringing in animals they just started helping me .It just came naturally with them .They bring in Donkeys ,horses ,shetland ponies and goats .

One of the best ways to train a young GSD to herd cattle is have the dog work with an experienced dog that knows what it is doing. The breed of the "mentor" dog does not matter. The GSD will instinctively adapt its own style to what needs to get done. My GSD was trained by a working ranch border collie. Their styles are different but the work gets done just the same.

Just make sure the GSD is not worked too young and has a negative experience. Once the GSD is mature enough, it should respect the cattle's abilities while having no fear.  After all, a good GSD knows exactly where it and livestock are in the food chain  :-)

What is an appropriet and unappropriet reaction to stock  when dogs are first introduced?    I've introduced a GSD to cattle and had another one AKC herding instinct tested with sheep. The dog I introduced to cattle was curious, not intimidated, focused on the cattle, friendly but assertive, careful not to get kicked, didn't bark unless she wanted them to move, and displayed the upright, tending style of herding.  The dog I had tested on sheep had never seen them before and wasn't interested.  The first dog had a good reaction for a potential herder.

A bad reaction would be fear, aggression or attempts to bite without cause. Being overly focused on the handler is another reaction that isn't bad in itself (it isn't dangerous) but is not what you want to see from a herding candidate. A dog like that might learn from another more experienced dog, but has questionable instinct at best.

I've been advised by a woman who keeps sheep and teaches AKC herding that puppies should be tested only after they have developed confidence and some mental and physical maturity, that is, around 9 to 12 months depending on the dog. Some may be fine earlier, some much later. And yes, you have to find a trainer who will work with the GSD style of herding.

GSD tend, other breeds herd. I think there is a very big difference assuming I understand both venues correctly?