BREEDING OFA FAIR RATED - Page 2

 Jon Eric,

We are not talking about "mildly dysplastic" dogs as you mention now in your last post. The original post asked about hips that were rated FAIR. Again, OFA FAIR hips are NOT dysplastic....period.

If your dog is dysplastic, then yes, it would be a good thing not to breed him. And remember, Penn Hip is NOT an accepted rating. And I hope the 1 year prelims you took were actually read by OFA, not you or your vet. The only way to see what the consensus is is to send them in for an evaluation. That is not terribly expensive. 

Held, hips are not rated one way one day and another the next day. Even if one turned right around and re submitted x-rays, based on results one did not like the first time, it would likely be at least 3 to 4 weeks difference as a minimum. If there are true anomalies in bone and joint development, they would still be present. However, if the film is poor, or positioning, for instance, yes, one can get a change in rating. People reading x-rays are not perfect either. This means it does behoove one to know a little about what to look for, and yes, to get several opinions as does OFA before issuing a rating. If one does not like the rating given, a second submission makes perfect sense, depending on what the potential problem was.

OFA fair,

I don't believe breeding like this will hurt the breed but it will not improve the breed.   

I have had dog's go down in the hip's late in life but they where still good dogs,  I didn't breed them but then again I'm not a breeder.    It all depends on your point of view and what you are breeding for.   

Those who really want to breed for quality would have higher goal's than fair but you should be looking at the total dog also.

Its not the worst thing to consider.

JMO.

Remember OFA ratings are done by a group of  (supposedly ) Board certified Vets, So it is all subjective but we must use what means we have at hand to calculate risk factors. You can,t fail Penn Hipp you just get a percentile of the breed rating.

Bottom line Good overall evaluation is the most important for any breeding considerations.

  Hodie,

   Your point is well taken.My male has other temperment issues not suitable for breeding in my opinion,and I understand fully your point on penn Hips Certification.My Post specifically addressed the many sires noted with Fair hips on this site.

I've used an OFA fair male bred to a good dam. 7 puppies, 5 goods, 2 excellents. BTW the excellents continued to produce more excellents in their litters.  One of my males was initially rejected by OFA as beng mildy dysplastic. On the very same day his litter brother too was rejected - mild HD too. One lived in Alaska, one in Utah. Both vets said - OFA is nuts, this dog is NOT dysplastic. So they were both done again and both received goods. For those who are keeping a count, that's an upgrade of 3 ratings - mild, borderline, fair, good. Quite a jump. In June of that year they were both mildy dysplastic; in September both had OFA good ratings. Go figure.  One of these males came back to me. He produced 27 puppies, every single one that was xrayed was OFA certified, one a fair, 3 excellents, the rest goods.  His entire litter of 7 cleared their hips xrays. One was cleared by a vet the other 6 certified by OFA, 1 fair, the rest good.  On the ohter hand I had 2 severe cases of HD from 4 generations of OFA good dogs.

OFA is not infallible and if I were still breeding I'm not sure what I would do. Frankly I don't have a lot of faith in them. For sure if I had a dog they rated as dysplastic I thought should pass, I'd xray again and resubmit. If I had the permission of the owner, I could show you an xray of a GSD with absolutely perfect hips that was rejected by OFA as mildy dysplastic.  I also have personal knowledge of one GSD owner's vet calling OFA after they rated a dog as mild. The vet was astonished and ended up talking to someone in authority at OFA who reviewed the xray and agreed that the readers had made a very big error. This dog was not dysplastic. However, the owner would still need to have another xray done and resubmit it to get a number. Duh.....

If producing good hips were as simple as only breeding the best hips to the best hips, all GSD's would be OFA cerified by now.

I think people expect all others to be perfect. Of course, on reflection, we all know this to be not the case. In fact, people get tired. People are rushed, sometimes they do not feel well. So sure, a mistake can be made without my throwing out the overall benefit of dealing with a person or an organization. As long as it is an honest mistake, I have no problem. If one studies medicine, one quickly learns how many medical people of all degrees (docs, nurses, paramedics etc.) make mistakes on a rare occasion. When mistakes are routinely made by the same individual, then that is a different issue altogether.

I would breed to a dog with Fair hips and a good background over a dog with Excellent hips and a so so background. A lot of hip problems can be eliminated by looking back in pedigrees and seeing what works and what did not, Lots of dogs have been line bred on hip improvers and have had Fair, Fast Normal or B rated hips and produce very good hips. Look at Fero he was Fast Normal and he is linebred on heavily and was known to produce good hips. Look at vertical pedigrees and proven results before passing judgement over a OFA rating which in my opinion can be subjective.

Lets remember the OFa equivalent to SV rating:

SV - Normal       OFA Excellent to high Good

SV - Fast Normal      OFA Low good to High Fair

SV - NZ       OFA Low Fair to Severe HD

I do have an OFA Spayed Female, she was Fair at 2 years and now at 13 years when we redid them (actually she was 12 then), the Chiropractic Vet was impressed that there was NO bone change as should have been expected in a Fair dog. So, I guess I would rather go with an OFA Fair dog with OFA throwing the caution flag instead of an NZ Dog which is done far too often. I know MANY German Imports who are supposedly Fast at 1 year and when OFA'd here at 2 get fair so I would assume the chart above is close to correct. I also agree that one needs to look at the entire litter before judging one puppy for breeding. The difference in a lower grade could be the position or exposure of an xray whether it be OFA or the looser SV.

JMHO

Tina

Actually that' not correct.  Here is the page where OFA compares other registries.  Obviously there will be overlap, but you can't assume OFA fair is the same as Fast Normal:

http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html

Other Hip Dysplasia Registries—An Approximation

Hodie, IMO having the benefit of 3 radiologists reviewing each film should serve as a fail safe for OFA. Sure anyone can make a mistake, but I myself expect more from 3 professionals who are supposedly trained experts in the field of hip conformation and radiology.  If their reputation is tarnished, then they need to look at the way they hire and educate their readers. I hate to think how many good dogs were neutered or worse due to an incorrect reading by OFA.  It happens all the time. If you would want to re-xray your girl with the fair rating and resubmit it to OFA, I wouldn't put any money on her not getting a better rating this time. I know plenty of owners who have done exactly that and most I know have received at least one upgrade in the rating.  Since OFA knows when an xray is a redo of a dog they have already passed on, they also know if and when errors are made. Those are stats we will never see on the OFA website. I also expect OFA to not accept a poorly positioned or exposed xray as diagnostic.

Sadly they are the only game in town, so there is little incentive for them to to improve their service.  I'd love to see a competitive organization doing exactly what OFA is doing.  I suspect we would see fewer dogs with normal hips getting classified as dysplastic. I don't know all that much about PennHip, but from what I do know I'd be surprised if that procedure ever gives OFA any competition. Most I know don't like the idea of having to anesthesize a dog as deeply as the Penn Hip procedure requires and they don't like the thought of the technician trying to force the hips out of the sockets.  then there is the cost of it all. Heck, some don't even want to lightly tranq a dog for a conventional hip xray.

It does stress the importance of each and every breeder learning all they can about normal hip conformation for the breed. Some vets aren't even sure about all breeds plus all GSD's are expected to be dysplastic. It behooves all breeders to educate themselves in this venue I think.  Doesn't mean we will know more than a board certified radiologist, but it does give an edge if it comes down to recognizing that an error may have been made and persuing it farther rather than just trashing the dog.

Speaking of medical errors, I just read on the Comcast newspage that a surgeon removed the wrong lung of a patient.  I guess he was having a very bad hair day