Genetics and color genes - Page 2

I bred a black female to a sable/black male, and the entire litter was black.  No sables.  You never know what's going to come from a breeding until you breed it.  But, with color you at least know the possibilities if you know what color recessives the parents have to give.

molly

the best explanation i have found

http://www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm

for me its easier to understand with pictures

john

Very Good info from all. No one has said anything about sex link to color. Is thier anyone that knows if there is any corilation to this. For example the man that bred the 3/4 black gene 1/4 sable gene and had 2 black females out of nine puppies. Where all the 7 sables male? Or where there any of the sables female?

mahon

no sex link to color.

Excellent info on color transmission in breeding.  One question that I have never seen completely answered is what controls the actual intensity of the pigment and the hue.  For example, why are some sables very dark with a deep black background hue, and some very dark with a deep red background hue, and why do some blacks seem to have a slight mahogany hue when in sunlight (very attractive to me)? 

I was once told by an old time breeder that the deepness of the pigment in any GSD, black and tan, black and red, or sable was an indicator of overall health, vitality and robustness, and that diluted pigment in the coat and lighter nails or too much whitness at the edges of the coat at the underside or rear was a sign of increased health problems and diminished vitality and robustness.  Is there any reason to believe this is true?

No, the color was not sex linked at all.
Of the 9 pups produced on 11/03, we got 2 black females, 2 sable males, and 5 sable females.
The most black in the sable pigment was on a female. The lightest sable coloring was on a male.

I agree 100% Preston-a sable with the reddish-brown tints showing is very attractive.
I'm not 100% convinced health hardiness will control pigment.
But I'm not 100% convinced it is not potentially involved to some degree. It is known that the 'liver' coat color in GSD is also often associated with some sort of 'lethal' gene which causes many livers(not ALL) to not live to full maturity. If this is possible, then could there be the opposite possible also?

I have a nice blk/red imported WGR show line female with ALL lighter nails (but no white toes or toe tips as a pup) who is healthy, an excellent mother, and has been my top AKC competition dog for 2 years. She's got excellent drive, personality, but her pigment isn't as strong as what I like to see and her saddle is a little washed out.

My guess on the pigment would be factored into what dogs were used and what bloodlines. I'm not a sable person, so I'm not fully familiar with things concerning that. But I do know of one sable I find quite handsome, and he's got some nicely pigmented bi-colors within his first 3-4 gens: Dasty Gries http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/15953.html

I used to wonder  years ago if breeding a black to a blk/red would produce bi-colors via genetic blending. It does NOT. Bi-color is a coat color all to itself genetically speaking. If you breed a solid black to a traditional blk/red, then the pups are gonna be either black or blk/reds with nicer defined masks and saddles. Now, IF a grandparent or great-grand-parent is a bi-color, THEN the coat color can show up in a litter-I did have that happen but only ONCE and it only showed up in one female (litter of 9 in April 2006 from blk/tan mom and black dad yeilded 6 blacks-3F1M, 2 blk/tans-1F1M, and 1 bi-color F). The blk/tan mom's sire was a bi-color.

Oops-typo up there. The blk/tan female and black male yielded 6 blacks (4F2M), 2 blk/tans(1 of each gender) and 1 bi-color female. It was the mom's first litter and she laid on one perfectly healthy black female during the night(even with my checking every couple of hours) and smothered her so I initially forgot to count her (mother had 9-we raised 8 pups), and I typoed putting 1 for male instead of 2-we had 2 solid black males who were very nice from that breeding. And in ten years, that has been the only bi-color puppy I've produced.

bicolor is not a separate color per se - but it is a seperate "melanistic gene tag" attached to the black/tan color gene.  Either a black/tan dog has this "tag" or it doesn't.  Doesn't have to be a bicolor to have the tag.  If a black/tan color gene has the "tag", then that dog can produce bicolors - if no 'tag" - no bicolors.  It only takes one color gene with the "tag" to produce bicolors in the puppies - whichever ones inherit the black/tan gene with the "tag" are bicolor, those that inherit the black/tan gene without the "tag" are dark black/tan and not bicolor.  But it is attached to the  black/tan and not it's own color gene.

Preston's question about the black pigment is a good one -   IMO the "background color" is what I call PIGMENT  (grey sables have less pigment, red sables have more pigment - black/tans have less pigment, black/reds have more pigment) - and the black markings "on top" of the background pigment is "black coverage" - some are more washed-out and some are more black, more intense markings.  I prefer dark pigment (red undercoat and markings) and lots of black coverage on top (makes the difference between "just sable" and 'black sable" or "saddleback black/tan" and "blanketback black/tan or bicolor".

I have black dogs and as with any dog - the healthier the dog, the  better the coat condition.  The better the coat condition, the thicker it will be, the less undercoat shows through, the more "black" it will look.  More coverage in thicker-coated dogs than thinner or dry-coated dogs.  If you think about it, there are not many "true black sables" that have a very short, dry coat.  Why?  because the shorter, dryer coats show more undercoat through, which is not black.  Not as much black = lighter color seen, even if the pigment is good - there is less black coverage and therefore "not black sable" in appearance.  Or not as black as a dog with the same color but thicker coat.

I have found my black dogs have that "brown tint" or "not quite black" in the sun, when they are preparing to blow their coat.  I believe this is simply hair that is dying, not yet replaced with new black hair.  I believe it is the same with black/tan and sablel dogs - just more noticeable in a black dog since obviously there is much more black (and therefore much more brown/dying hair) to see.  When my black dogs are in new coat, they are coal-black and shiny, beautiful.  Out of coat, they can be brownish to various degrees, and coat is not as shiny.

molly

Molly and Katja, excellent information that is very hard to get.  Many years ago there was an import dog Ghenghis.  He produced some very dark black sables with deep red background pigment (almost purple) and a breeder not too far from me had one of the ghenghis sons and with this color. He was perfect physically, had great movement, tended to be on the sharp side (but stable), much sharper than most AKC dogs and should have been Sch. trained.  The owner never did much with him, but the dog was awesome.  Since then I haven't seen any sables with the deep red background.  Did this combo die out, or is it still around?  I guess that any GSD with lots of pigment is impressive to me, whether it is a black sable, a dark bi-color with red points, a very rich black and brown,  a solid black or a black or red.  Some of the very dark black sables with deeply black masks and face are very impressive.

If Molly's theory of bicolors were true, then a bicolor when bred to a solid black could in example, produce offspring colors in the following breakdown.

Tagged Black & Tan (appearing bicolor) X unTagged Black (Bb* X bb)
25% Bb* Tagged Black & Tan (appearing bicolor)
25% Bb unTagged Black & Tan (clearly Black & Tan, not bicolor)
25% bb* Tagged Black
25% bb Black

But I have not seen any evidence that a bicolor phenotype when bred to a black could produce a Black & Tan.